The Conscious Cut
This podcast is dedicated to re-thinking sustainability in fashion and beyond. As a second-generation garment manufacturer, host Hoiki Liu has seen the challenges of overproduction, greenwashing, and unsustainable business models firsthand. Through conversations with entrepreneurs, innovators, and changemakers—especially those driving sustainable practices here in Hong Kong—we’ll explore real solutions for a more responsible and transparent future. Let’s cut through the noise and redefine sustainability together.
The Conscious Cut
Ep. 1 Rethinking Sustainable Fashion w/ Jane Scaffidi Abbate
Thanks for tuning in to The Conscious Cut. In this pilot episode, we explore the transformative world of sustainable fashion with Milan-based professor Jane Scaffidi Abbate, an expert in eco-design and circular fashion. From the environmental impact of clothing to tackling waste, greenwashing, and consumer accountability, Jane shares insights on reshaping the industry through education, upcycling, and collaboration. Discover how circular design is more than a trend — it’s a vital shift toward responsible production. Tune in to rethink your relationship with fashion and take steps toward lasting change!
Jane Scaffidi Abbate is a university lecturer from the Istituto Europeo di Design.
Thank you for listening!
Welcome to the Conscious Cut. I'm your h ost, Hoiki Liu. This podcast is all about rethinking sustainability across fashion, lifestyle and everyday practices. Through conversations with entrepreneurs, policymakers, educators and changemakers in Hong Kong and beyond, we'll explore real solutions, from industry-wide policies to the small habits we can all adopt. Let's cut through the noise and create meaningful change together.
Hoiki Liu:So today we have with us Jane Scaffidi Abbate from Milan. She's a professor at IED University and you teach eco-design and circular design. Is that correct?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:happy to be here. I think it's very important to have these discussions because you hear and you reveal a lot of what is going on, and also about the frustrations and what is going well within the industry as well.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah, I mean we had a bunch of discussion about all the problems and jumping all over here and then this morning about, because there's just so many issues, like we were saying today, even in one simple sentence. When we're talking about sustainability and fashion, there's probably like 10 issues in that sentence that we can jump into.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes.
Hoiki Liu:But I guess let's introduce you to our audience a little bit more and let them know. Can you tell us a little bit more about your background and maybe how you got into sustainability?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes, so I have a bachelor's. So first, when I lived in Denmark, I had a diploma in pattern making and tailoring.
Hoiki Liu:Sorry, I'm just going to ask you. I always thought you were Italian because we met. No, no, I'm actually not Italian, but I lived there more than half of my life.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Okay, I see, sort of Italian. I'm actually not Italian, but I live there more than half of my life. Okay, I see, sort of I'm actually Danish, all right, yeah, um, anyways. Um, so I'm, I have an education in tailoring and and um, in pattern making. And then I moved to Italy and I was studying um in Istituto Marangoni, where I did a bachelor in fashion design and a master degree in fashion styling, so everything very fashion in you know, the old school way. Now, okay, um, and I've been working in different areas. I've been doing costumes when I was in the united states for houston ballet.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:I worked in different ways with fashion throughout the years and then, when I came back to Italy eight years ago, I started to work for universities so different universities in Italy, within the fashion industry, and it was, I think, was like two years ago, three years ago maybe. I felt like something was wrong, the way that you know, like I was teaching, obviously, what should be taught, but I didn't feel like I was contributing to something better. Okay, so I I actually decided one day either I totally quit the fashion industry or I started teaching something where I can make a difference. Yeah, and this is basically how I arrived at a point where, for me, it was just wait, the industry is just too much. And this is how it actually started with the sustainability. I've always been interested in in the sustainability and how to make it better, obviously, but, but this is where I really started also to study by myself to be able to, you know, provide a better education also yeah, I think it's similar.
Hoiki Liu:For me it's eventually you get to a tipping point when you've been in the industry for a certain amount of time and you see all the problems that that we haven't ironed out and it's growing and it's just piling up and you just see it, you just see yourself getting into it, you know.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So I think that's exactly where where I arrived, at a point where I didn't feel that there was either. Or, you know, I cannot stay in this anymore.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah, I didn't want to be part of, I didn't want to continuously contribute to this problem. Exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Exactly, exactly, and I didn't feel it was correct. You know, like direct way I was doing stuff before.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah, I totally agree.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So that was the tipping point.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah, so I think let's also talk a little bit more about eco-design. How do you teach the kids eco-design? How is it different from the fashion design that we know?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:That we've been so used to all clips, right, right, so.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So in eco design goes a lot of different topic, obviously, but but the most important thing here is that we start to design a product where you have not just eco design but where the whole product turns circular, meaning you have the loop closed, where the beginning of life of a product also has an end and has a new purpose in the circle. So I think it's very important that for new designers, they're taught to know the whole supply chain, but also to know that when you start designing a product, you need to know what is going to happen with it in the end of life. So when the consumer doesn't want it anymore, what, where is it going? Are you going to recycle it? Are you going to turn it into new upcycled products? What, what is going to happen? And I think this is where, um, where it's getting really let's put it like that difficult, because you have to create new designers which are creative in a new way it's not just if you're good at drawing something glamorous, but but in the future you would need to.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:You would need to design based on what is already existing, and I think that's going to be the most difficult part of it, but it's also where you really see the creative designers coming out I, I totally agree.
Hoiki Liu:I think, um what we've seen in the science so far, that all the very extravagant things it's great, but it's just it can't last through time. Exactly like it can sit. Maybe it can sit there for a lot and last through time, but it's not something that you can repeatedly bring out and wear again and have it last two times and.
Hoiki Liu:I do agree. I think maybe in like, maybe not in the short future where we're still working, but maybe eventually, like when our kids grow up, they're not going to be wearing things that's like this Everyone's going to be wearing something that's redesigned from something else, Right?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:right, yeah, Right. And I think that's you know, when you're talking about upcycling, often you think about, you know, something you stitch together in your domestic sewing machine at home and looks a bit homemade. But I think where it's going to be very interesting when the big, both manufacturers but also the brands start coming together and they're designing it together. So the manufacturer is saying to the brands look, I have 300 t-shirts which are purple, design something based on that, and then so they can reuse what they already have. You know, maybe it's just a matter of changing something and then you can sell it in another way. And I think that's where the really creative part is coming in, because it's also a very different way to be creative, but it's also very difficult.
Hoiki Liu:I think people don't realize. But just like it's actually easier to create virgin materials, it's easier to make virgin polyester and virgin nylon than it is to recycle and to reproduce it so same with design. If you're starting on a blank canvas, it's actually much easier than taking what you have existing and to recreate something with that exactly, yeah, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:And sometimes it's also difficult because then you have like a weird color or a fit or materials which are very difficult to make work together, yeah exactly so.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So I think it's, it's uh, I think it's going to be very interesting, but but it should be the way to go, because we have um large productions which are, you know, having a huge stock. They cannot do anything about an instrument, perfectly working garment which is already produced. So I think it's important that that. But it's a matter of brands and, you know, manufacturers working together I think.
Hoiki Liu:As for consumers, they have to think about. It's not even what they're donating or they're getting rid of or throwing out, but actually a lot of the waste comes from. I was asking the kids at my school last week about this. You know, what do you think happens to all the clothes that you see on the shop floors? Let's forget even what's in the warehouse for inventory online just what's on the shop floor.
Hoiki Liu:And then I mean, obviously you see it's a new season, they're all laid out beautiful, and then they go into sale and you know there's still a lot of everything left. But I mean I asked them there's like 20 kids. Do you think all like when we, when when uh brands go on sale, do they think they sell everything? Like everything is gone after this week of sales and we're all we're done? And I mean even the children know they're like no, I'm sure a lot of things are left over, right. So that's the question what do we do with all the leftover things?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:where does it go?
Hoiki Liu:yeah, because I mean we know nowadays they don't go to the outlets.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Outlets get their own outlet life exactly, yeah, right, yeah, and that's absolutely also complicated. You know you have outlets having a specific collection made for outlets, not like 15 years ago where you could actually find you went in an outlet store where you would actually have a lot, a big mix of all sort of stuff. Now today it's like going into a regular store.
Hoiki Liu:It's going into a discount shop, basically like for sub-level, subpar goods. I almost want to say. The second-hand store is becoming more of what the outlets used to be. We know it when we're young. It's like people are actually trying to treasure hunt Right.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:In their now Okay.
Hoiki Liu:I think this probably ties in really well with the next thing that we can bring up, which is the upcycling workshop you did with the kids.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes, so I think, as for me, the education part is very important. I think it's all which we're going to do in the future has to do with information and education on so many different levels. So not too long ago he had organized a workshop on upcycling different items. It could be socks, it could be t-shirts, it could be already, you know, like cutouts that they had from you know, the lab that we have in the school, and they invited kids from four to ten to come and do that, prepared some small, you know, dolls and octopus and stuff like that that they could make by hand really fast. But this opened the minds to these kids that you can actually take some stuff and you make something new out of it. Okay, and this whole upcycling concept I think should be introduced in many different levels for kids that's beautiful.
Hoiki Liu:Actually, one of the ideas I was talking to you about the all the wastage I have left from a bad production. Maybe I should be thinking about the same thing. Instead of just making something else for sale, I should involve the kids to make something that they can take home, and they will so, so purpose.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So it was fun because the workshop was one and a half hour and obviously I already prepare a bit what they could make. Okay, so, but they made like like bracelets, or they made like small octopus or you know, like different things that they could bring home and say like I actually made this. And I think just the fact that you actually make something yourself already is a big result, especially if you're four or five. You know, like, I made this one, yeah, and I think that's what we want to promote. Also, when they get a bit bigger. You know, I actually I remember I did this because these things are something that they actually remember Right Without going to. It's not necessary that you have to. You know, make big events. You know that you have to go to a roller coaster park or something like this If you have events like this where they actually feel like they're creating something. I am not saying it's going to do the same as a roller coaster park, but you will know.
Hoiki Liu:But you will have, like it's, building beautiful small habits that they will have with them, that they are now able to see that, hey, I'm able to make something. I'm able to accomplish this If I just give it a little bit more thought, a lot of my things don't have to be garbage.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:But also, if you have that one sock, which never has any, you know like no partner Exactly. You can actually use it for something. Yes, yes, yes. You know, I'm not saying that you have to make a hundred small octopus out of a sock, right, but if you know that you can actually use what you have for something else. Yes, you know, it's a way for them to start thinking if I have a jacket that I don't use anymore because maybe it's too short on the sleeve, could we make it sleeveless?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes yes, yes. So just for them to start thinking about how can I use whatever I already have, but not only with clothes, with everything.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah. So it's a great way to trigger and kickstart a habit, like a good habit of just thinking of reusing it and stuff. I mean because recycling is actually not the best? No, absolutely not, I think even even just the the thing about fixing stuff.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes, so if you have a sock with a hole on and I know it's cheap to go out and buy a new sock yes, and we probably everybody got money for a new pair of socks but it's just the fact that you're actually fixing something yeah, you know, you make the life longer. The lifespan of that single product is going to be so much longer I've heard so many reasoning from the.
Hoiki Liu:I mean, I'm not going to specific any, but I just heard so much reasoning from people in general saying oh, I have to shop fast fashion because it's just affordable for me, yeah because I don't have money for luxury.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes yes, yes, no, but in theory you don't have to have because probably you don't need anything, probably your closet is already full. Yes, go and see if you have something in the closet, and if you don't buy 10 of you know, like not even 10, maybe you can buy five less of something and then buy a really good quality item you can keep for a long long time, or I think the extreme for me is I've actually seen this guy who was wearing a uniclothes sweater with patches.
Hoiki Liu:He's just been patching them up. So I also want to say sometimes it's not so much a problem of the quality of fast fashion, but how do you care for your things.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Right, right, and that's actually another thing. I also believe that a lot of people do not know how to take care of their clothes, I agree, so they wash it wrong. Maybe they put stuff in the dryer which is not supposed to go into the dryer. I'm not saying you should dry clean too much, because that's not good for the environment either, but try to see if you can care for your clothes. Maybe wear it one more time before you wash it or so I think it's.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:It's a matter also of how you take care of the clothes. Okay, you don't wash it too many times and and again you buy natural materials, because when you then wash all the plastic, microplastic doesn't go out in the water streams. And that's another discussion as we talked about this. It's a large topic and you know when you start on one you start on to another, you jump on to another.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:And that's also why I think it's's I'm not saying it's difficult to discuss this topic, but there's so much, yeah, to discuss. So so, no matter in what direction you're going, I think I believe that that we always end up in different directions there's always ways to do better and there's all different ways to do it, and um certain ways might work for some people and not for others.
Hoiki Liu:I mean, but yeah, one of the things that you just brought up about washing your clothes and polyester clothes. So, with recycled plastic and recycled polyester, specifically, that's one of the issues that I always have. I hate recycled polyester t-shirts. Right, because those are t-shirts are something that you have to wash all the time. Right, and every time you wash, um, we have to realize, as great as our technology has gone through, right now, the recycled materials are always going to be shorter filaments than the, than the virgin ones, and it's just easier for more microplastics to wash shop.
Hoiki Liu:So one of the things I always suggest to customers is put your recycled polyester inside your garments, do the recycled polyester filling, or even do the recycled polyester outerwear that you're washing unlimited times, exactly, yeah. So I think when we try to do good, it's just if you have a partnership and cooperation, people can remind you where you can still do better, exactly, and where some things that you know your intention is good but you can't help it sometimes the execution doesn't always come through, right, yeah so, yeah, exactly, and I also think it's a matter of you know for the designers.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:You know designers with our you know generation, yeah, they might not even think about these small ways, and I think here we are missing an education span for our generation, which designers with a lot of you know, a lot of experience, yeah, but they're not taught to design in this way. Yes, so when you tell a designer in our you know age about this and they're like it makes sense, yeah, but it's just a matter of knowing it. Like if you have a guts, you know a cotton t-shirt, yeah, and and you and you, you stitch it with a polyester thread.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:You know already, there it's difficult because then you cannot recycle it, because then you have like a mixed product, so it's a matter of you knowing like you make a hundred percent cotton t-shirt but you need to stitch it with cotton threads, otherwise you cannot recycle it.
Hoiki Liu:So that's actually one of the topics I know we're jumping around again, but one of the things that I was just telling people about I was explaining to the kids about last week when I went in to give them a briefing before Fashion Summit. They were asking me why can't we just recycle our clothes, like, why can't we just recycle it Like we would recycle the plastic bottle or the cardboard box? You know, and I'm like it's because most fabrics come in mixed qualities and also a lot of the things, so, so, like they. I mean, after explaining, if you have a polyester cotton fabric, you just can't separate those filaments anymore. It makes it hard to recycle. But also one of the things that they were asking me how, like you know, I might have a 50 cotton, 50 polyester shirt, so that's why I cannot recycle. It could be 98 cotton and two percent polyester and so that's why I cannot recycle it. It could be 98% cotton and 2% polyester and I still can't recycle it because it's all mixed in.
Hoiki Liu:And this is when we brought up the other topic, greenwashing. When they see a lot of things like on the hand tag, it was tell them made of organic cotton or recycled polyester. But when you actually because they're asking how come I can't recycle the recycled polyester t-shirt? Right, when I bought it it said it's made with recycled polyester, so in their heads I can recycle it again. Right, like something that came from recycling can also be recycled again. And I was like no, because if you actually look at the tag, there is 5% of recycled polyester, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:And it's only 5%. Yes, and I think that's also one of the big issues that obviously brands want to sell something which is not. I saw a pair of socks the other day cashmere wool socks, where you have 80% nylon acrylic, and then you have 5% cashmere and five percent wool, yeah, or something like that, and then in the end it's you know, yeah, the percentage.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So you know it should be like nylon socks, yeah, with a bit of cash exactly, yeah and I think that's also why it's so important that we start having some, some rules and legislations, because not everybody's reading what is on it and if you're saying it's a cash, you know if it's a cashmere sweater, but there is only 5% cashmere, it's not a cashmere sweater it's whatever other cashmere, it's another sweater.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:And I think that's very problematic. But we're back to the greenwas then. Yes, then it's a completely different topic again we're never gonna end the never ending.
Hoiki Liu:all right, okay, I think we've kind of mentioned about um, upcycling and circular fashion and business, but let's dig into it a little bit more. Do you think, think this works as a business? Upcycling and I mean for myself, I have. When I was asked this question, maybe around five, six years ago, I had a very like come from no, it doesn't work. Like making individual pieces doesn't work as a business, it can only work in your own home. But I'm having second thoughts.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So I think that if you make like, but not like as a big corporation, might not work, but not not like as a big corporation might not work. But but if you're having a little brand and if you make your whole model around this, this upcycling, so maybe you source your jeans. If you want to make upcycling jean stuff, you source your jeans, the right you know from a place you you get your materials from a place where you you know you can source X amount a month. Yeah, I think it's very important to have like. If you can sell X amount, it's very important that you know that you can have an incoming as well. Yeah, so that's a part of it. Do I believe upcycling? Upcycling could also be, if you're a big manufacturer and you're having 100 coats that you cannot sell for some reason, being able to have your designer cutting off the sleeves and sew something on instead, or changing it so you can sell it again, or collaborating again with the brand saying I have these coats, can you please come up what do you think?
Hoiki Liu:we make a collaboration that you design something and we will fix it and we can sell them without being throwing out a hundred codes I think with brands collaboration will be great, because that's one of the things we're mentioning is actually most brands when they, even after they go on discounted sales, they have so much surplus left leftover, exactly, um, as a manufacturer, I thought about that because sometimes I have leftovers but I can at this moment only use on my dead stock because I'm quite worried about customers branding and what they don't sell.
Hoiki Liu:But, um, yeah, definitely working with the brand to let them know. Why don't we do this project together? Exactly, but it could also be their leftovers yes, I think most likely it would be like that.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes, so if they have their branding and stuff inside it as well, you know it's not going to be an issue.
Hoiki Liu:Yes, in fact, you use it as a highlight. Attribute Like this brand is upcycling what they didn't sell yet Exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So there is actually a good example that Miu Miu, they upcycled some of the old denim jeans right, and they made some unique pieces and they're selling it, obviously for an extreme amount of money, in their flagship stores. Yes, yes, okay, and I think that's a very good example because I think it's very important that brands like like Prada and Miu Miu are giving an example that it's actually possible.
Hoiki Liu:I think that's a great example, because there was also, I think, just in the last fashion week in Paris. I'm not going to mention the brand name, but there was also another terrible example of one of the brands using all the wastage to create their fashion show stage. Okay, where, you know, the wastage is literally just going to become garbage at the end of the show. Yeah, yeah, but I think what Miu Miu did with that is much better and they also made a collaboration with, I think, with levi's where they.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So I think it's very important. Well, it's very important here to make the distinction between upcycling stuff like that, also in collaboration with other brands, and then the you know like just collaborations and I just want to say, the other thing that I brought up is more like it's not even upcycling, it's downcycling right.
Hoiki Liu:You're ruining what could have been recycled. Exactly yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So I think it's very important that you know famous, big, famous brand does make some examples, Set the examples. We can see it a bit. It was a bit like when the bigger brands stopped using real fur. Oh, yeah, yeah, and it was like small rings in the water very fast. All fur went off the market and now you basically don't. It's almost bad. Yes, exactly.
Hoiki Liu:And no one really wants it.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So I think it's a matter of giving an example, but it probably has to be some of the big luxury brands doing that, and I think the more they push it, probably the further they can also go with it.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah, I guess it's just with the bigger brands we know that you assume that they have the finances to push forward with a change, whereas with smaller brands I always say it's it, it's also feasible, but in a different way. We have to look at it, not from so much a financial way, but how you can change your just daily practices.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:right, maybe starting small but continuously growing, exactly but I also think it's a matter of now that at least in europe, you need to start, you know, be responsible for what you're throwing out. Yes, so I think, at least for smaller brands, it might benefit you if you find a way to use what you already, first of all, have produced and not have to, you know, keep going back to you because you have to pay to get rid of this stuff.
Hoiki Liu:You know, and it's just not right throwing out stuff which is perfectly working, which is actually one of the things I have two-sided views on the product passports, digital passport Only that thing, because you know, with my own brand, right now I'm using a lot of dead stock, yeah, but it's very hard for me to find back out. Like, where is the stock from exactly? Like, the lab test that I will do on it is the content test to ensure that I have the right content. But besides that, you know, a lab test of 20 times standard, that's not even good enough for me.
Hoiki Liu:So I do my personal test, which is I just kind of test the fabric myself. I make a simple mock-up of a sample and I just try wearing that fabric day to day in the office at home and see how it feels and how it washes. You know if it fades, if it shrinks or if it's got some chemicals in it. That's making my skin itchy, which has actually happened once, you know. But so, like all these things I believe in, so right now, for my own collection, all my clothes, I expect it to go through 200 washes, no problem, okay, yeah because, it's what's I've tested out and I know so.
Hoiki Liu:I think with small brands, where it's difficult, it's also an opportunity oh yeah, they just kind of have to find their footing and ways around you know what?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:I think it's all a matter of you know developing ways of doing these things, because if you make it normal to your brand yeah, you know making sure that you don't throw out stuff yes, I think you can. If, if it's a habit, I think it's just the way that you can make it work in the in the future and and if you want to start up a brand, especially if you're a new startup, I think it's very important to implement all these things from beginning.
Hoiki Liu:You know, basically create a circular brand from the beginning, so you don't have to go back and need to change these things and with the, the new, um, I don't know if it's a legislation, but like the new passports, digital passports and stuff, I think what it would be good is, in a way it will stifle the competition.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:That just can't make it exactly if they can't give you the data.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:They can't be transparent, they yeah, and you cannot sell, that you know and I and I hope that also it's going to help on the market that we don't have so much stuff yes, exactly that's the other thing having if you have to test everything like t-shirts. Yeah, maybe they will say like, okay, but we need to test them, we need to have this and maybe that they cannot even provide. Yeah, you know all the information. Yeah, so like maybe we're just gonna have five.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah same with the fabric supplier too, because if they cannot figure out what this yarn is exactly, then they would just have to step away and decide not to use it instead of going forward, which might happen, what they do in the past and just make something anyways, hoping that it would sell Right, okay.
Hoiki Liu:So, back and forth, we've kind of brought it back and forth about well, you know, big brands, small brands, how do we make circularity work for everybody, because you have worked with different size brands, I also want to hear what is something that you've seen that has worked?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:That has worked, yeah, so yeah, so I think it's very important to understand. I was working when I just came out of university. I worked for a big fashion company and I learned a lot, but this topic wasn't even you know an issue, so obviously it was not even to be implemented at that time yeah, so.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So I think where we see it's working and where it's very important is, um, when I have been working with smaller companies, I think it's easier to implement it from the beginning, obviously when you start up okay right. And it's easier to implement also for smaller companies because they're more agile. You know they're produced. They don't produce so many pieces, so also for the production line they're they're a bit faster to adapt. Yes, obviously, being a smaller company, you will have probably less funds to invest in all these, and that's obviously difficult because sometimes you have to do investments where you don't see any returns yes at least you don't see any returns for the first, maybe five years, three, five years, yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So if you have to change to renewable energy in your factories or in your offices, that might not be a cost which is coming back to you, yeah.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So a lot of these new investments might not be something where you see a direct benefit, and that's obviously difficult for smaller companies, but it will benefit from the world, for the world, obviously on the long run. For the bigger companies, they might have much bigger fundings for these things and they can make departments. But but at the same time, if you're producing in different countries, if you have, like, a lot of products, different regulations, exactly you have different regulations, you have different markets and of products, different regulations, exactly you have different regulations, you have different markets and and you need to apply all these new rules to a lot of different markets. Obviously with a bigger production you would also have, like you will not be as fast as making a turnover or a chain make this change as a smaller company might have, okay, so I think I think it's a matter of you know like you see, and obviously you won't see the benefits as well as fast. Okay, also, because for larger companies, the investments are obviously also bigger.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:You might have to hire the whole you know like department of sustainability and you might to hire um marketing as well.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:So so obviously it's on another, it's just on another level. That said, I still believe I'm not saying that everybody have to change 100% from one day to another. But what is important is that if you just maybe you make, it doesn't matter if you're a small company or a big company, but if you make, like, start out with three goals, you know one, something you can change right away. Right, something you can change within the next half a year, a year, and then something it will be changing within the next five years, and then you stick to them instead of saying like, no, we need to change a hundred percent everything, and then you're gonna fail, you know exactly. So I think it's important that maybe you make uh, you make a plan and then you start working for this plan.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Then now they're coming out, you know, like laws that you have to follow. So obviously we have to follow those laws. But for the other things, I think it's important that you start doing the investments and the you know like to, to do the things that you are able to do, and then make a plan for it, because I think that's the way that you are able to do and then make a plan for it, because I think that's the way that you can come to success. But also for the bigger company and smaller companies I think it's the same, but I think that's very important that you make a plan and try to stick to it. I think it's also important that everybody is trying to do just one little thing, then doing it 100% and failing, so I think I do agree with you.
Hoiki Liu:I think for the smaller brands, because most of the time, if they have this in mind, they might have started from the beginning, exactly. So everyone on their team kind of has this understanding and they know this is the goal that they're working towards. With a lot of the bigger brands that I've been working with, I think most of the biggest issue is they've usually hired a team, a sustainability team, that has great understanding and this is what they want to do. But when it comes down to the prices or even the rest of the company understanding this mission, when they don't understand it, the finance team don't want to pay for it, right? And so it's always like a circle that turns into a line, right?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:And, obviously, what it comes down to. As it is business usually, what it comes down to is a matter of bottom line. And often with these circular methods in the beginning. Obviously it's just more costly.
Hoiki Liu:It is. It just costs more.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:And that's the investment as well. I think we should see more as an investment in in the big picture.
Hoiki Liu:It's an investment, you know, not just a cost, and also, I almost want to say I feel like I know the government's doing a lot more to help with transparency, but for those companies that's obviously not being responsible on their environment, I almost feel like they need to have some environmental tax slap on exactly, yes, exactly, or fines and something.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:I totally agree with that.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah, yeah, yeah and maybe like their incentives for businesses that are infesting into this to ensure that they have a circular future. That doesn't. Maybe there needs to be tax incentives on the other exactly, exactly.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:But I think there is a lot of ways that you know like you could, you, you could as governments, help in this way also, because it's easy to make rules. Yes, if you then don't help, yeah, you know, I mean, it's very, it's a very fine line.
Hoiki Liu:there's sometimes, uh, rules that kind of just it's almost a line to keep newcomers from entering, but then there's also rules that actually help the whole economy and the environment.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:But I also think it's maybe for some companies which are working just fine you know they're selling, they're doing their stuff it's very difficult to understand that they need to change a system which has actually been working really well for them until now. Yes, you know, and now we have to put in money in something that we don't know where we're going to end up with, right, yeah, so obviously incentive would be, would be helping.
Hoiki Liu:So obviously incentive would be helping, but I guess at the end of the day it's the whole world, including the consumers, that must understand, so the consumers can first make better choices.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Exactly so. I think we're all responsible for this, both the brands and the manufacturers, and also, especially also, the the consumers, because you know the brands are creating the need. Of you know like they're they're saying.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:They're telling us you need to have a new shirt each time you go into the store but it's not the consumer stopping up saying like two seconds yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually don't need that one. Yeah, okay, so and, and, and, then again for the brands they're ordering, ordering from the suppliers, which they just have to fit in Because the demand the consumers are having, this demand that we just created. So it's a vicious cycle and I think we are all responsible. I think everybody which is wearing clothes are responsible for also knowing what is going to happen with it afterwards and where it's coming from.
Hoiki Liu:You know, we need to be more involved in what we're wearing and what is going to happen with it, because, no matter how much of a blind eye we turn today, this problem is going to show up at our doorstep. Oh yeah, it's already in there.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yeah, this is not going to disappear.
Hoiki Liu:Yeah yeah, yeah, people are saying you can send it out in space or you can send it to Africa, south America, but the problem is not going away, it's just moved. Yes, yes, yes, you're just shifting it from one area to another. Sooner or later it will come after us. Yes, I think so. Well, I'm so happy to have you here today with me to have this discussion. Is there anything that we want to add before we?
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:conclude. No, I'm very happy that you invited me, because I think it's such an important topic to discuss and to also have just a conversation on this level, because it's on so many levels that you can discuss it and I think it needs to be discussed it should definitely absolutely.
Hoiki Liu:Thank you so much for inviting me and I'm so happy to hear that this is now a course being taught in the universities. It's not just a another fashion design or pattern making or stylist course, but literally really being mindful about what you're producing into this.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:But and I also think like it's important, it's important that it's being taught.
Hoiki Liu:Yes, I think so because this is.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:This is really something which is going into the future generations, and this is the only way we can help this, this topic, out, you know?
Hoiki Liu:yeah, absolutely yeah. So I mean the kids nowadays. Like I said, it's not that they don't know, but we have so many bad habits from the previous generations that we've kind of just brought them up with that we do need to make this change.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Yes, absolutely, and I think the younger they are, the the the the younger that you make these things to a habit. I think that's where we can make a big change because I mean a lot of it is habits.
Hoiki Liu:I mean before the 80s or 70s. No one would be going to a convenience store to buy a bottle drink when you're thirsty, you just have your water bottle these are just habits, you know, yeah, this whole can feel in or the modern world is new habits that we've only built in the last 20, 30 years, exactly yeah. So, yeah, time to undo them.
Jane Scaffidi Abbate:Convenient had to go. Yes, all right.
Hoiki Liu:Thank you so much for being here with me today. Thank you, thank you, you.
