Ep. 2 A Journey in Environmental Advocacy w/ Karen Ho

In this episode, we explore the inspiring journey of Karen Ho, WWF Hong Kong's Head of Corporate and Community Sustainability, who transitioned from the disposable packaging industry to leading environmental change. Karen shares insights on the critical role of employee engagement in corporate sustainability, Hong Kong’s challenges with renewable energy and waste management, and innovative solutions for clean transportation. From balancing convenience with environmental responsibility to unlocking the potential of Hong Kong’s natural spaces, Karen’s story is a powerful reminder that personal transformation can drive meaningful change.

Karen Ho is Head of Corporate and Community Sustainability at WWF Hong Kong.

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

HOIKI LIU
Welcome to the Conscious Cut podcast. I'm your host, Hoiki Liu, and today we have with us Ms. Karen Ho from WWF Hong Kong. The reason I have Karen as our guest here today is because she's impressed me multiple times. In all the different panel discussions that I've met you at, I've seen you at, you are the only presenter that doesn't repeat your presentations. You always have new insights, new ideas, new... new new thoughts for us to think over and to you know really ponder over how we can do better which i think is exactly the way it should be because um and being being environmentally friendly It's an ever ongoing process. There's no like, this is a deadline. This is how you do it.

HOIKI LIU
And this is right. So I love how you're always inspiring us with more and something new and something fresh. And also she presents it in a really human centric way. So anybody can get it. There's so many panels where it's kind of like, what are you talking about? And you see all these confusion on everybody's faces, but yours is so direct and to the point. Actually, there's one that really hit me that I still remember. You came in and it was a morning discussion. And the first thing you said is, did you guys have breakfast this morning? How many of you bought breakfast from a restaurant and had all your takeout cutleries, McDonald's, about the straw, about the cap? So that really stood out to me too. And I thought, it's something that's so simple, but really people don't think about it. Right. Like I remember you saying how McDonald's had changed the plastic cover for the lids because they were banning straws. So they had this other extra little thing, which is so useless and unnecessary. Right. Why do we do this? Why do we take like one, you know, we take one change and instead of changing it for the better, we're just changing for a different problem. So I'm really happy to have you here today. But so let me give you a chance to introduce yourself first. Can you tell us about your background and your role here at WWF Hong Kong? So first of all,

KAREN HO
first of all, thank you for all your good words. I guess why I'm so connecting to the audience is just because I'm another layman. So I like to put things simple. My background, yeah, simple. I studied business and I got an MBA degree. And I started working for a multinational company. And interesting enough, I started with disposable packaging companies. Oh,

HOIKI LIU
I didn't know that.

KAREN HO
And then I worked in one point of time,

KAREN HO
I worked in one point of time, a factory in Yunla, industrial estates, and produced. all the disposable paper cards, plastic lists, plastic straws. And I always told my colleagues today at WWF saying that I'm just here to buy back my grills. I've done things wrong a long, long time ago and then I need to get it fixed now. But interesting enough, I see the environmental issues like... It's an evolving issue. Like back in the 80s, 90s, the economy in Hong Kong is really fried. And then everybody is looking for efficiency. They don't have sufficient time to really sit down and eat.

HOIKI LIU
don't have

KAREN HO
And then that's why the disposable packagings are so commonly available. And then you see all the fast food caterings. And it's all, I would say, established around that point of time. But of course, time goes and then people are more aware of environmental issues. Press the fact that the problem that's created by no matter the plastics or burning fossil fuel or what else. becoming bigger and bigger and it's hard to solve. And now that it's really time for us to change our lifestyle. So at WWF, currently I'm at the capacity of head of corporate and community sustainability. And in a sense, I like to connect the corporate wall together with the property to really tackle the issues, to first understand what the issue is and then... collectively brainstorm new ideas or solutions to really address the challenges that we have today. I'm pretty confident that we create the problems and then we should have the ability to solve it. Definitely.

HOIKI LIU
like how you guys bring corporate and community together because very often it's very separated right like how's this business going to be more green and how are you as a person going to be more green but really it all needs to start from the person because you can be working for a company that cares but if your staff doesn't care it's really hard to translate this into actual everyday practice so I realize often there are panels where you'll see the head of companies there, but more and more now, they'll start to have their staff involved. And I think that's when it really shines through what you have to say. It's connecting with the public in general. So they're understanding this not as just something that they have to do for work, but something that we all have to do. We just have to do it.

KAREN HO
Yeah. I guess that brings also a lot of value to the company. Like what you say. A company may have formal functions like sustainability units or corporate social responsibility. But in order to really protect your company's image or to reinforce the messages that your company wants to communicate with the audience, It's not only the responsibility of that unit. It's not only the responsibility of the CEO or the senior management. It's everyone that works for the company. Yes, we see every employee in an organization or in a company are an ambassador of their company.

HOIKI LIU
Yes,

KAREN HO
employee in an organization or in a company are an ambassador of their company. So by more engaging your employees, get them more educated, it will... really bring a lot of weather to your company. And then when you want to communicate with them your long -term vision, say a lot of companies are now planning for 2030 to reduce half of the carbon emissions. And then by 2050, we want to be net zero. And you can imagine if... someone come into one of your employees, not to mention that they may be of junior level or middle level, only that they ask what's your company's strategy or wishes of tackling climate change. And if that employee cannot answer it right or cannot answer it according to the strategy that the company has devised. then undermines a lot of your communications and undermines a lot of the public confidence in terms of your pledging against the social good or against some climate actions. Right.

HOIKI LIU
I totally agree with that because that's what's exactly happening way too often these days. We all understand what we're supposed to do, but then somehow it trickles down and the message just disappears or it gets lost. But okay, moving forward. I'd like to also understand how... Okay, also with the environmental impact now, I'd also like to see what are the most significant challenges Hong Kong faces in terms of climate action? And how is WWF Hong Kong addressing them?

KAREN HO
Yeah, interesting enough, I recently have the chance of presenting the current assessment of Hong Kong's goals, Strauss Net Zero, to one of the foundations. And then I do my homework and then I review all the government's targets as well as the latest statistics. Guess what? We basically are falling quite a lot behind. Like the pledge from the Hong Kong government in their Climate Action Plan 2050. They did mention about they want to have 7 .5 to 10 % renewable energy target. Right now, we only achieve 0 .8%. So it's far, far behind. Concerning electricity use, you know that we need to reduce our electricity consumption in order to really drive the GHG emission down because over 60 % of our city's emissions are generated by electricity. So this is very important that we hope that the Hong Kongers can reduce their consumption of electricity. But of course, we also understand that in recent years, there's a lot of hot days, there are a lot of extreme weather, and we don't expect people not turning on their air conditioning. Yes, yes, yes. Resulting that, the electricity use, we don't see any drop of usage.

HOIKI LIU
And I guess when it comes down to... The individual, like you said, sometimes people are like, oh, it's really hot. It's just like our family. We deserve to turn on the AC. You don't have that. And you're like, I shouldn't have to like totally suffer just because I care. But at the same time, I guess it comes down to, this is where we say like corporates can do a bit more because when we're talking about the AC issue, what I always find is it's the worst when you go into a shopping mall. office buildings. Why is it so cold? It's so cold, right?

KAREN HO
There are a lot of thousands of reasons why they cannot turn it higher. Part of this is because of the old retrofitting kind. They said the system is old and then whenever we want to turn it a little bit higher, then we take time to get the temperature out. Anyway, apart from the electricity consumption, there are also other what I want to say, indicators that signaling that we are not meeting any standards. The other large chunk of emission is from transport. Ah, yes. And then the government say that, okay, we also want to popularize electric vehicles. And of course, we understand that electricity generations from Hong Kong are still, part of it is still from fossil fuel, but... Anyway, it may be better for us to all electrify our vehicles such that when we have ability to change the fossil fuel, then even the transport sector can be benefited. But what we see along these years that governments are talking about electrifying vehicles or transport systems, we did not see a single increase of electricity. the electricity use in the transport sector. Oh, really? Majority of them are still by MTR. And then we don't even see, because you know what, it's also very interesting that when you see the target of the government, they mention about how many number of vehicles that will be converted to electric vehicles. And they're not talking about the fuel use, the fuel used by the vehicles. We wanted to change from petrol or heavy oil down to diesel or back to electricity. And then back to electricity. So what I would like to say is maybe the measurement is, well, need to be adjusted.

HOIKI LIU
Yes, it needs to be adjusted. And I think there needs to be transparency and clarity on exactly what we're measuring, how we're measuring. And that needs to be translated back to the community. Because in general, I think when we talk about lowering carbon emissions, the general public still doesn't really understand what they can do. Besides turning on the aircon less, switching off all the lights, using less electricity, but there can be definitely more that can be done.

KAREN HO
And then the third area a general public can really do is about a very hot topic. Waste reduction. Yes.

HOIKI LIU
Also, waste reduction is huge, but I also actually want to go back quickly to transportation because that was one of the things that you mentioned. So Hong Kong being such a tight -packed city, with the amount of cars and public transportations we have, definitely, I don't know the actual numbers of the data and the statistics, but I'm going to assume at least half of the population here rely on public transportation. I guess more than that. I mean, probably more, right? So if we just change the public transportation sector, that should be already a huge change to the energy consumption, the carbon footprints.

KAREN HO
Well, the public transport sector are starting to do something. To start with, MTR are using electricity already. But what I want them to do more, maybe they could build more solar system on their properties such that. the electricity used in the MTR system are actually from our year and that will be perfect. Yes. And then secondly, about the bus. Yeah. I understand some of the companies are already starting to use some solar. And of course, right now, I would say the percentage is not... satisfactory but at least they are aware of that and then they start to do something and I guess the government needs to also facilitate the things I think I've seen that like buses where the whole roof was was those

HOIKI LIU
think I've seen that like buses where the whole roof was was those What's it called? I lost my track of time. Thai and Lan Bans. They have it all on the top of the buses. I've seen a few, but it's very rare. But that's only generating small amounts of electricity.

KAREN HO
small amounts of electricity. Yeah, because it's such a small thing. Are we aware that some of the buses that are really electric buses?

HOIKI LIU
So this is the thing. I recall seeing... the news about China at some point. This must be a few years ago. I want to say it's probably before COVID even. They're using buses that run by electricity. And as it runs, it takes the air and it's like an air filter. They're saying it runs instead of creating carbon, it filters the air. It's cleaning the air. I don't know. What's the thing? I was like... Well, what happened to those passengers? And it sounds too good to be true. Like, electric bus cleans the air.

KAREN HO
air. I've never heard about it. The reason why we support electric buses is that, you know, if we are doing fuel combustion type of vehicles, whether it's buses or trucks, when you burn the fossil fuel, when you burn petrol or burn heavy diesels. then there will be roadside emissions, what we call just nox or socks, that kind of emissions. And of course, that will pollute the air. You feel it instantly if you're standing in a bus stop. Yes, and that's bad.

HOIKI LIU
that kind of emissions.

HOIKI LIU
Yes,

KAREN HO
And when chill bus or vehicles or cars are being filled by electricity, then you don't have that combustion process. And in that sense, there's no nox or socks created. And that's why the air quality will become better.

HOIKI LIU
in that sense,

KAREN HO
will become better. Right. I'm not sure whether it's because you change the electricity bus and then they filter. One thing very important is using electric vehicles, cars or buses on roadside definitely will help the roadside quality. Yes. And then the people that are waiting best or waiting for vehicles will be in a more comfortable situation.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah, and that's what we're all striving for, right? It's like besides, you want the world to be in a better place because... You just want to be more comfortable in this space, right? Why wouldn't you want that?

KAREN HO
Exactly. And that's why I'm quite impressed that some of the best companies already procure, of course, not a lot of number, maybe within 100 electric buses. In terms of technology, double -deckers are also having electric models available. And interesting enough, last time when I was in London, I see all the technology Double -decker? Yeah. And then the brands are actually from China. Ah, right. And then I said that, hmm.

KAREN HO
The Baxter's in Shenzhen can export all their double -deckers to the United States. Hey, why not?

HOIKI LIU
This is sometimes where I think like, you know, when we're talking about government support and incentive, there's what... is being said and you know i know there's funds that's being put aside that you know we can all reach out for if you're doing the right thing but not really yeah well i don't know yeah that's a different topic i mean i haven't researched really on how the

KAREN HO
don't know yeah that's a different topic i mean i haven't researched really on how the But anyway,

HOIKI LIU
anyway, let's go back to the waste. Yes, the waste that everybody, I think this is the easiest thing that an individual can do.

KAREN HO
But however, you know that the waste charges are pending. Yes, yes. And then actually the waste management in Hong Kong, the municipal solar waste, are being used to landfill. Right. Then? methane will be generated. Yes. And methane is a very carbon intensive gas, I think. It's probably 21 to 25 times of carbon dioxide. So that means if we emit one tons of carbon, or no, if we emit one tons of methane, it will be equivalent to 21 to 25 tons of carbon dioxide. Right. So that's really where the focus should be at. Exactly. And then in Hong Kong's GHG emissions profile, about 8 % of the GHG emissions are coming out from waste management. And that's why we are so keen on having this wage charge passed. Yes, we also see a lot of success cases in other cities that once the city launched a regulation saying that you individual or household need to pay for your waste, then the waste... amount will significantly reduce yeah um so it is still a bad culture i see this as a few things right because i mean it almost seems like i'm going off topic but i'm not i want to talk to a group of students about how you know like what i'm doing garment manufacturing how like large government manufacturers how do they downsize how do they switch you know and instantly it's like it's ingrained even in the children's minds

HOIKI LIU
culture i see this as a few things right because i mean it almost seems like i'm going off topic but i'm not i want to talk to a group of students about how you know like what i'm doing garment manufacturing how like large government manufacturers how do they downsize how do they switch you know and instantly it's like it's ingrained even in the children's minds you want to downsize like a large scale like a production space or whatever then what's going to happen to all the workers everyone's going to lose their jobs no and that's a similar i'm saying it's not far from what we're saying right now because this is a similar excuses that we're hearing it's like oh you want to change the way you you're collecting rubbish what about all the cleaning staff and all those workers that does this for a living you know and you're just kind of like there are ways around it like this is um all soft skills they can learn new skills they can actually learn how to you know still take your charge with this charge and but i think that's the the this the conversations that's missing between the government and the public and how can you make this change like the government is just saying oh we need this change you guys figure it out everyone's doing everyone's like oh but there's this problem there's that problem and this is why it keeps getting pending because yeah There is so many problems that no one's talking about how to deal with in between the switch.

KAREN HO
switch. And I guess the last conversations between the general public and the government, I guess the focus are all wrong. Yes, because everybody's talking about buying the garbage bag.

HOIKI LIU
That's not the problem. It's not the rest, right? It's confusing. They're talking about trying nothing like a machine. Right, and that's only a tool.

KAREN HO
I just think you are facilitating you to measure the ways created by yourself. Yeah. But the whole conversation boils down to, oh, we better throw everything that you might not want now quickly before. And then I may want to throw away my ways at midnight. Yes.

HOIKI LIU
They were taking away the garbage cans, garbage bins on the roads, fearing that people are going to stuff the garbage in doughs. And then for a period of time, I remember there was like, no trash cans on the road. I don't want to say it's wrong. I know in Japan they do it, which makes people really realize they're responsible for the garbage. You can't just throw it out anywhere. You take your garbage with you and you deal with it at home. I can see it's just such a quick and drastic change. Again, this stuff really, I guess it turns off the public, right? It makes them think that it's not a great thing. So it needs to be step by step. It needs to have clarity and it needs to be explained on how... It needs to be more thoughtful, right? Like how it's... I guess this is exactly the challenge in Hong Kong.

KAREN HO
guess this is exactly the challenge in Hong Kong. You know, everybody's, the life is so quick. Yes. The fast pace. And then people listen to something and then react very fast. And then without having a deep forward, without really holistic, really looking into the issues. Yeah. And then without looking into all the solutions. And then, well. Yeah, we object. Yes,

HOIKI LIU
yes, yes. Here's a whole bunch of problems.

KAREN HO
You don't want it. No, and then when the government are faced with some pressure, then they step back and then say, oh, maybe we want to, we study it or hold for it.

HOIKI LIU
it. No,

KAREN HO
for it. So this is exactly the environmental challenge I would say in Hong Kong. People are so educated. And then Hong Kong is such a wealthy city. I'm shameful that... We do not pioneer some new solutions, whether it's for climate, whether it's for waste management. However, because people are so fast paced and then people tend to not focus or not wanting to spend their time into these issues or into this kind of topics at their leisure time. Usually people would just lay slow and then enjoy life. during the last year without really thinking of how they can actually contribute to improving the environment. I feel like also in Hong Kong,

HOIKI LIU
feel like also in Hong Kong, people, even when we're taking it slower and enjoying, we still want the efficiency and the convenience.

KAREN HO
the convenience.

HOIKI LIU
So yeah, people are always just going for what's convenient, what's efficient. And that is so ingrained in everyone's minds that, you know. productivity is number one and like everything else can take a step behind but that's absolutely not the way to move forward I think that's the DNA of Hong Kongers but at the same time I do have a dilemma like a lot of Hong Kongers like to travel to Japan or travel to Taiwan whenever they have a long weekend and then I ask

KAREN HO
think that's the DNA of Hong Kongers but at the same time I do have a dilemma like a lot of Hong Kongers like to travel to Japan or travel to Taiwan whenever they have a long weekend and then I ask many, many colleagues or friends, what do you like in Tokyo or what do you like in Taipei? And then they enjoy the environment, they enjoy the environmental protections or kind of initiative that the people have there. And then I followed up with a question very bluntly and I said, what do you think if every one of us Contribute a little bit of our efforts to really improving our neighborhood where you spend, I would say, more than 200 days a year and then turn it into an area similar to Tokyo, similar to Taipei. And then you don't really need to get relaxed.

HOIKI LIU
Yes, go away because you need to relax at a green space. We have that here. Like it's actually all in our backyards. I almost drove up to the peak and I went. Sadly, a lot of people aren't even articulated. Yeah, they don't know what the difference is. I mean, they very much know what the difference is, but they don't see the steps that they can take to make this place. Yeah, they don't believe in themselves, I would say.

KAREN HO
I would say. They don't believe that the little work or the small tasks or the small steps that they made could really change the labourhood or to change them. the hometown that they live.

HOIKI LIU
So one of the things, I also ask some questions every now and then. To be honest, the last time I went to Japan was over a decade ago. I know this is like the second hometown for most Hong Kongers. Everyone thinks I'm weird, but I really haven't been back to Japan for quite a period of time. But often my friends, I do have a bunch of friends that go annually, you know, for a ski trip or whatever. And I will occasionally, like, you know, sometimes the reason I know about this, there's no trash cans in Japan, it's because I've heard people complain about it. Like, they've not, I shouldn't say complain. They've mentioned it in passing. With no complaints, actually. Like, oh, this is how Japan is. then why isn't this how Hong Kong, like you can just accept that this is how Hong Kong is too. But the moment we took away the trash, it was like this huge dilemma, like how can I live in the city anymore? Yeah, exactly. So it is about how everyone takes care of their own home and their own space and their own place. But somehow when we get back here, it's like the daily grind, right? And everyone just wants to do what's easy.

KAREN HO
Yeah. So WWF in Hong Kong, actually what we are trying very hard to do is really bring back people to nature. You probably know us a lot. We have conservation sites. We have Maipo. We have Poi Ha. And we have Island House. Yes, they are very, very natural, naturally beauty conservation sites. And then we really want to bring people out of the building and then get them back to the nature. Yeah. And then let them enjoy. and then let them interact with the nature, and they will feel the ability. We hope that when people reconnect with nature, there will be a lot of ideas, or at least giving them back some of the marriages that they can do something better. And realize they just need to connect back to nature.

HOIKI LIU
they just need to connect back to nature. You can't always just have your mind in the city, doing city things. Our city is very much built upon the nature. That's why we've got so much green in our city. Our whole backdrop is filled with mountains. We've got the best hikes in Hong Kong. Exactly.

KAREN HO
Actually, Hong Kong people are very lucky. We are very lucky. We are very lucky because we can go to the countryside in half an hour or one hour. We've got beaches all around us, country parks, wetlands. We even have a lot of iconic species.

HOIKI LIU
because we

HOIKI LIU
Oh, okay. See, I know we have some in Hong Kong. I just don't know how much is left.

HOIKI LIU
I remember two years ago when we were doing Flag Day, me and my son did a bit of research because we didn't just want to sell flags. So when we did Flag Day, he had a little A4 poster printed out of different shots from actually WWF's Instagram page. So he put together a grid of like 12 shots that he liked. from the WWF Instagram that he wants to tell people a little bit about. Like, why should you donate to WWF Hong Kong? So these are some of the things that they're doing. And the thing he was really excited about, but he couldn't go to at the time, which I believe he's going this year for school, is the mangroves. Because he was too small. He was too young, yeah. So he's done the Maipo. He did the Hoi Hao on the boat. So I think this year he's going to the mangroove and he's super excited about that. So is he going to see new species in the mangroove? Should I tell him he's going to see something?

KAREN HO
I hope so. But, well,

KAREN HO
you know, Living Planet report that Abu Dhabi International publishes every two years. We have a very set of figures that we have about... I've got, it's about 69 % declined in number of species since 1970s. So it's not an encouraging number. And then with that as a backdrop, our team in Hong Kong also produced a conservation report reviewing all the local biodiversities as well as the species. And then my conservation colleagues will publish this report probably by early March. And then it's with the name of species at risk. They really want to draw attention to the habitat change or the environment or the threats that these species are facing right here in Hong Kong. And then riding on that, of course, not everybody. I just mentioned Hong Kong people are so busy and then they won't spend time in digging into a scientific report. We will, in parallel, run a social campaign. And then the social campaign will be with the name of I Live Here Too. We want to speak out from the animal, saying that they also live here, not just Hong Kong people living here. So I hope people will join the campaign. And then by April this year, we will have another street fundraising. We are selling frets again. And then the frets will be featuring the ending list. Oh, great. Yeah. And I hope that by all these kind of engagement activities, we will be in connections with the Hong Kong people, bring their awareness up to local biodiversity. And at the same time. hopefully they will lend support to conserving the environment as well as changing their own lifestyle in order to help a little bit on the habitat. That's so good because I think one of the things is when people think about WWF,

HOIKI LIU
good because I think one of the things is when people think about WWF, they don't think Hong Kong. Even though we're selling flag day for WWF Hong Kong, that's why my son thought I need to tell people what WWF Hong Kong is doing. Otherwise, for the general public, when we're like, oh, would you like to... buy a flag and support WWF, they think we're talking about internationally. I feel like it's so far away from them. Like, oh, what does the African animals have to do with me here? And then they might just walk back. But when we feel like, actually, we're talking about locally and how we're talking about what we need to do. And there's so much we can do here that we can save and protect and actually even revitalize, really. Yeah. So that's really exciting to hear. Two flag days this year.

KAREN HO
Yes, April and June. Yeah.

KAREN HO
Right. And then the interesting story that I want to share is some of our colleagues, well, probably it's quite a bit of time ago. Her name is with Catherine and then she's a colleague with me in Maipo. And then she needs to monitor the bird species. Right. And then one of the ways that we try to monitor the birds is to put a ring at the leg of the birds and then with a number. This is a traditional way of monitoring birds such that when the birds are migrating to other countries, bird watchers can really take a look at that and then report back that they can find these birds with the number as well. And by that sense, we can track the path of the bird and understand their lifestyle as well as staying how many days in which wetland or staying how many days in which locations. That's the very, very traditional way. And of course, with the digital advancement now, if having resources will put some very, very small lightweight satellite on the back of the birds. And then instantly we will know how the birds trajectory will be like. But going back to the story of Catherine, she tracked many, many birds. And then in one of her vacations back in Australia, And she go also hiking as well as doing birdwatching. And then she find the birds that she reigned in Hong Kong.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. And she's so funny. And she's so funny.

KAREN HO
she's so funny.

HOIKI LIU
Her and the birds are meant to meet again.

KAREN HO
meant to meet again. Yeah. And it's a very, very impressive story. And if you ask me why I can sustain my world life in Hong Kong, WWF is the everyday stories that I heard from my colleagues. And it's the passions that the WWF colleagues exert. And then I guess if I have time to talk to each of my colleagues, they manage to have a lot of stories to tell me. And it's a very, very interesting organization.

HOIKI LIU
tell me.

HOIKI LIU
So I'm sure even like having somebody else send you guys back pictures of the bird you tagged, it's already very like, yes. Someone caught it, right? And be catching yourself again. That's crazy. All right. So I guess we've kind of gone through the community engagement and the flag day. I want to get a little bit deeper in because we were talking about business and community. What about youth involvement? How does WWF involve youth? I know like you guys. Like my son's school have reached out to you guys, but I don't know how he goes to a private school. So I don't know how it works with public schools in general or just education in Hong Kong. Well,

KAREN HO
we do have a very strong educational team and they reach out to schools to give school talks or to conduct any activities. And at the same time, we do have a regular program with the name of One Planet Youth. Students can come to our conservation site either to help us as a citizen scientist. They can be involved into conservation projects.

HOIKI LIU
Is it a little bit older kids, like research students?

KAREN HO
I would say depending on the task that we assign now. Okay. Some of the tasks that are really simple is about removing the invasive species. Ah, yes. Like removing the bacteria from the trees. Right, right, right. Well, I'm sure that... And first,

KAREN HO
Right, right, right.

HOIKI LIU
first, I guess you have to understand what is invasive species because there's oftentimes where we're just like, oh, don't touch nature.

KAREN HO
It doesn't belong here.

KAREN HO
here. All right, right. Of course, if we have the engagement activities with the students or with the youth, we will explain to them the local biodiversity, the native species, as well as the invasive species, and then have them wanting to help us to do the removal of the invasive species. So that's one kind of very easy task that they can do. Right. all the students or youth that really want to learn how to research on the nature, on the biodiversity kind of things. We do have another program like they can help us measure the growth of mangroves or any trees. Okay. So they just need to help us measure the diameter of the trees regularly and the tallness of the trees in order to calculate back how the growth rate of dead trees are like.

HOIKI LIU
Oh, and that's simple enough. It's like teaching kids how to take data and mix statistics out of it. Exactly.

KAREN HO
So these are kind of simple things that CHIS as well as youth can be involved in. And of course, for some university students that like to plan their career into conservation or environmental science, they may join our internship program. And then we have different departments and then depending on their interests, they can work more on the metropolitan side of things like my side, more on climate actions. But they can also work again in the conservation side or even to the ocean team supporting them. And then they have a lot of different activities.

HOIKI LIU
Right. Yeah. I guess one of the other things, this was not part of the plans that I expected to ask you. Since we're talking about youth, I'm wondering, I hear nowadays more and more Gen C or Gen Alpha. Do I want to say they're more understanding towards sustainability and the environment impact?

HOIKI LIU
want to say they're more understanding towards sustainability and the environment impact? Kind of, but also not really. I almost feel like it's people that's born maybe from... maybe at least in their 20s to 30s now and above, we feel climate change because we used to have winters. I used to need to wear down jackets in Hong Kong for the wintertime, which I haven't done so in probably the last four or five years. I feel like some of the youth has forgotten those days. So they don't quite almost, when we say they should understand and it's for their future, it's for everybody's future, but it's very much. important for their future because there might not be one if we keep going this way but at the same time I almost want to say sometimes it feels like they have the same attitude as adults who feels like I'm not going to be here much longer I'm not going to be here much longer but it's more like it is the way it is like what do you mean there's no winter there was never a winter you know so like how do we get them to kind of start thinking actually the world can become better for you. And has the government or the public school system invited WWF into the schools to maybe give a little, because I know like the environmental studies is becoming more important. So are you guys playing a role in that sense? Definitely.

KAREN HO
You know, the schools like should have this STEAM project or, yeah. And then oftentimes, a lot of teachers will reach out to us to explore collaboration with our organizations. And then they'll try to embed a lot of the environmental messages into their curriculum, even if it's coming to university. Right. We, well, at least myself, have several times working with the service learning team. Because, you know, university students need to undertake service learning before they get graduated. And then in order for them to really engage into the community and then serving the community, a lot of professors will reach out to us and asking for different topics or what tasks can be assigned to the school. And then I always top down or nominate some of the environmental challenges, whether it's climate actions, whether it's increasing renewable energy, solar panels on the rooftop, or even simple as how can you reduce consumptions, that sort of topic. And then we always find that students are quite innovative. in terms of coming up with proposals or solutions, your views of Gen C or Gen R that they may not even experience winter. I agree with you. But having said so, I tend to feel like a lot of young people, they are ingrained with their environmental consciousness. We don't really need to lecture them that you need to do this, you don't need to do that. I guess they know everything, especially when nowadays it's information overflow. Yes, that's true. Or at least if we get them interested in the subjects, they can search for so many answers on the internet. And later on, AI.

KAREN HO
are interested in the subjects. They can go through or do a lot of research on it and then they know what to do. But what's more important is, I guess, we need to allow them or to give an opportunity for them to really demonstrate how they feel or what they think. Oftentimes,

KAREN HO
we ask students to come up with a proposal and that's it. We ask them to enter into a competition and they do the presentations and then we do the scoring and then, okay, you win. Yes. That's it. Yeah. We never allow them or support them to really turn their proposal into reality. Yes, yes, yes. So I guess the more things that we can do would be allowing them to really make things happen. And only by making things happen, they learn.

HOIKI LIU
Yes, that's so true.

KAREN HO
And then only by making things happen during the process, they will suddenly aware that, well, it's not that easy. Yes. I think I can register or I think I can just change it. And when they really go into the community and try to convince, only one. people to change their lifestyle. They will understand, wow, there's a lot of hurdles. There's a lot of barriers. Not that we want to get them discouraged. We want them to really face the reality. Then we think their solutions. We think their proposal. Yes. And only by that, we can have come to an agreement. It's not that. elderly people or early generation saying that, oh, my experience helped me that it doesn't work. Yeah. And so your proposal is not working. Yeah. So if it doesn't work,

HOIKI LIU
it doesn't work, let it fail and see why it fails. And then you can vote from that again on top.

KAREN HO
Maybe they are so clever or they're so smart to find a niche market. That can make it happen. And then gradually replicate it. The ripple just... I saw one time,

HOIKI LIU
I saw one time, I don't remember if this was Hong Kong, but I think I must have that news article still open somewhere because I've been trying to find more info on it, but I've been failing to find any more info than the students won this competition. They won a competition to create some enzyme that will eat up old t -shirts. Ah.

HOIKI LIU
I heard about it. But then I can't find something more information. So it's exactly what you said. These students created something. It seems so wonderful. Such a great idea. Won the competition. And then?

KAREN HO
I'm not sure. I guess several years ago, a team of people, it's not students, but it's conscientious people coming to us saying that they have this... startup kind of things. They want to create a new business and they want to grow these worms and then these worms will eat up all the way. Yes, yes, yes. And they said that during the process, it will generate heat and then we can recover the heat to generate electricity. Yes, yes. And I said, spring brain is so good, delicious. And then I bring it to my conservation director. I say, is this... kind of projects that we can support. And then, unfortunately,

KAREN HO
we'll proceed with that. But I'm not sure how, what they said that they have a base somewhere in Yunlong. I'm definitely sure that the story is very compelling. And then I'm sure that they can find other supporters too. Proceed with their work. Often I feel like we do see new innovations and solutions.

HOIKI LIU
like we do see new innovations and solutions. It's often lost with time. I don't know if it's because it didn't work out, like there was problems, there were hiccups, or sometimes I feel like there's lobbyists that just doesn't want this to work.

KAREN HO
But definitely this is one area that... Well, I would say WWW would like to explore further, especially my team. That's really good to hear. Because we really want to cloud source a lot of new ideas because only the employee in WWW will not help solve the problem of Hong Kong. We need everybody's contributions. Yep.

HOIKI LIU
Thank you so much for this conversation. I think what we've gone through so far is it shows that there's still a lot to say. So we'll definitely have to revisit and come back to these topics. But before we end today, I would like for you to give some advice to individuals on what can they do or what habits can they pick up? on their in their daily habits to what daily habits can they change to make their lifestyle more sustainable it's something easy that you know we can all try to do I guess nowadays everyone knows about the what's the formal name of it waste reduction hariyaki or something like

KAREN HO
guess nowadays everyone knows about the what's the formal name of it waste reduction hariyaki or something like You know what I want to say? Avoid, reduce, recycle.

HOIKI LIU
Reduce, reduce, reuse, recycle, recycle, and then recycle,

KAREN HO
and then downcycle. Yeah, something like that. Well, I would say whatever word starts with R is good. Yes, that's true. And we think, and a lot of we, but... Well, I guess Hong Kong is being a very materialistic world. Everybody wants to go shopping, whether it's because of that materials, that goods, that products, or whether they just want to de -stress. I like to emphasize that they can actually ask themselves whether the things that they need or want. So think twice or three times, whether that thing is you need or you want. Yes. And then even if it's what you need, you don't necessarily need to buy a new one. There's so many ways that you can get one. You may get it from secondhand markets. You may get it from Swatch. You may get it by borrowing from your friends. You may get it by exchanging it with other friends. So there's so many different ways that you can get available something that you really need. Yeah. And I still remember that it's already, again, many, many years ago when we worked with corporations to talk about business transformation. And then that company traditionally buy a lot of very low -cost goods from China and then export it to Europe and then selling it in the retailing market. And then... When we talk with them about reducing resources used, reducing greenhouse gas emissions and all sorts of things. And then they come up with these ideas that they don't want to continuously do the bulk purchase from low -cost products. And instead, they created some renting models. Yes, yes. So as simple as they buy very, very cheap, cheap hammers from China, and then the consumers may use it to nail on the wall. And then once and then they keep it in a drawer. And then when they want to nail another time, they may forget about the hammer at the drawer. And then they may go to the shop and buy another one again. And then they claim that this is really redundant and then they don't want to support such a behavior. And they created this model like you just need to come and then buy the service.

HOIKI LIU
And they

KAREN HO
just need to come and then buy the service. Either we launch you the hammer or we have professionals to come to your house and then to do the service work for you. And then, you know what? Always service will charge higher than just selling a product. Yes. And then it actually improves their profit. And I guess it will improve their community too.

HOIKI LIU
I guess it will improve their community too. Like they'll have repeated customers now because I need the service more than once. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

KAREN HO
And I guess we as a consumers or just a general people, we can also always think from that way. Yeah. I need this. products and then i buy it and then it's really low quality low price one and then i don't really like it and then i use it and then i throw it away yeah well if it is a really um good products that you invest into it probably you will treasure it more yeah or even better when you think of ah i want to call

HOIKI LIU
and then

KAREN HO
products that you invest into it probably you will treasure it more yeah or even better when you think of ah i want to call and ask for whether you can lend me a crow that I need to dress it for for event yes then you get connected with your friends yeah then it's it's the kind of things that we never imagined that we want to do on a daily basis but now that we can rethink and now that we can well really think our box and then see whether we can practice this more

HOIKI LIU
Especially with technology nowadays being so easy, I can always just send you a message like, hey, I need something in a group. I think it'll be really good for community building. It'll be really good for the environment. So it's just a win -win overall.

KAREN HO
Right. So just remember that... Doing good things, sustainable living is not that difficult, I would say. It's not. It's just bits and pieces that we can do together and then have fun.

HOIKI LIU
then have fun. Yeah. It's just about being a little bit more thoughtful, right? A little bit more thoughtful, thinking a little bit deeper about how this world might be good or bad for the environment and then if you really need to do it. Exactly. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm definitely going to have you guys back because we still need to go through. how we should focus on how big corporates being more green too next time.

KAREN HO
Okay. Thank you so much, Karen.