Ep. 3 Redressing Fashion: Mission for Change w/ Dr. Christina Dean

In this episode of The Conscious Cut, we explore the inspiring journey of Dr. Christina Dean, a former dentist who became a leading advocate for sustainable fashion as the founder of Redress, a pioneering NGO combatting textile waste in China and beyond. Christina sheds light on the hidden environmental impact of design decisions, the rise of "green hushing," and the wasteful practices of fast fashion, including the staggering cost of consumer returns. She also discusses the urgent need for circular fashion solutions, the growing price gap between luxury and everyday clothing, and the power of consumer choices to drive change.

Dr. Christina Dean is the Founder and Board Chair of Redress Hong Kong.

Thank you for listening!

Chapters

• 3:43 Bridging the Fashion Industry for Circularity
• 7:11 Making Fashion Circular: Educating Designers and Consumers
• 9:43 Inspiring Responsible Consumption in Fashion
• 15:16 The Challenges of Online Shopping and Overproduction in Fashion
• 23:48 The Complexity of Sustainable Fashion: Balancing Economic Growth and Environmental Impact
• 32:52 Educating Consumers on Sustainability
• 36:25 Balancing Manufacturer and Consumer Demands

Transcript

HOIKI LIU
Welcome to Conscious Cuts. Today, we're joined with Dr. Christina Dean, who's a true changemaker in the sustainable fashion industry. She's the founder and board chair of Redress, a pioneering NGO dedicated to reducing textile waste and driving circular fashion solutions. With over 18 years of experience, Christina has been in the forefront of reshaping the industry. Through initiatives like the Redress Designed Award, thought leadership in global media, and her award -winning documentary series, Frontline Fashion. I'm so excited to have you today here. I'm so excited to have you with us here today, Christina. Let's dive in. So the first question I have for you, and the first topic I want to talk about is actually, before all of this, I want to know how you got into this industry. Because you told me 18 years ago, you weren't in fashion at all. Exactly.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Well, yeah, it's very odd. It's a very good question with an odd answer because actually my training is that I studied dentistry and I actually was a practicing dentist and I really hated the job. But I'm kind of quite a passionate person and in eating a job it just didn't feel right. So I retrained as a journalist and then I moved to Hong Kong about 20 years ago and I wrote about environmental pollution, about public health and about industrialization in China. And I was specifically drawn to interested, intrigued, worried by the textile industry's environmental impact, which is so vast, as we know. And just at that point, like 20 years ago, exports from China were really increasing as the whole sort of global fashion market changed. And so it was because I was a very, very nerdy journalist that I got into the textile industry, into its impact on that. environment and with that on public health. And then I found out that nobody, or very few, I couldn't really find many advocates who were championing the cause for redress that I started redress. There was no one out there.

HOIKI LIU
I think especially if you're talking about like 18, almost 20 years ago, which is when I got in the industry too, that was almost when fast fashion was just, you know, really picking up. And no one was talking about the problems at all. Everyone's just talking about the profits, the profits that this business is going to bring. And that was so exciting that no one looked at the responsibilities behind it all. So I think it's so great that it's something that, you know, to be honest, I think even though I've been in the industry for 20 years, it really only hit me about a decade ago. Yeah. That's interesting.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously I've been doing this for a long time, but you might want to sort of, cancel this conversation because I still find it incredibly confusing and complex. Even though I breathe it and I talk it and I think about it and I do it all day, I don't actually have all the answers. I'm really sorry to say that because it's such a complex industry, full stop. Sustainability within the fashion industry, unbelievably complicated. The world economy is so complicated.

CHRISTINA DEAN
The world

CHRISTINA DEAN
so complicated. Nothing is easy when it comes to fashion and sustainability.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah, because I think it's still, it's not a lot more in the limelight now than it was before, but still, you know, it was something like before COVID, it was on full force. Everybody needed to move in a more sustainable way. But the moment COVID hit and all these bankruptcies happen, all these brands start pulling back their budgets. And the first thing they cut is sustainability. It's not marketing.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Yeah. Glad you've got a wicked sense of humor.

HOIKI LIU
Let me touch a little bit more on how redress is helping. I know nobody has all the perfect answers right now. And this is why we're constantly carrying out these discussions. Discussions to try to bridge the industry, different players in the industry together. Because the fashion industry. You know, we always talk about we want it to be circular. There's so many parts of it and not a single part is circular, actually. We're working on a very flat line. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So to bring it into circularity, we really need to bridge all the parts together for everybody to understand each other for that to become possible. So with that said, I'd like to actually understand more of what Redress is doing. I know you guys have so many different parts. You guys have the annual design awards, which is very focused on sustainability. You're working with the big giants of the manufacturing world already. So that is a great bridge for designers to actually get in there and understand what's happening. Because without that understanding, you can't design in a sustainable way when you don't know what's being done in a manufacturing end. Well, frontline fashion is great. Like I said, I think everybody needs to watch the show because especially everybody says that has no access to factories and manufacturers. They don't know how it's being done. Well, actually watching frontline fashion, they will learn a lot about how things are being done. So, you know, that's one of the ways to get into the factories, even though you're not there. So tell me what else am I missing? What else are you guys doing?

CHRISTINA DEAN
First, I'm going to tell you Redressers' mission. It can sound very dry, but I'm going to say what Redressers' mission is. So we're in a Hong Kong -based, Asia -focused, environmental nonprofit working to accelerate the transition to a circular economy by educating designers and consumers. So you addressed it. The linear system is kind of what's got us into so many problems where we take, we make. we use and we dispose. The majority of the fashion industry is on a linear model. It's the hangover of the early industrial boom that we created such a stupid system which we extract from the earth. In clothing, we make something and then we wear it for literally five minutes and it's out. To your point, what Redress is trying to do is to create a circular economy so that the resources that we take from the earth are kept in use. Where ideally, Ideally, ideally, nothing goes to waste in landfill or incineration. So what gets me very agitated is the data. I'm going to come back to your question. Forgive me, I'm going back. No worries. It happens all the time.

CHRISTINA DEAN
No worries. It happens all the time. No,

CHRISTINA DEAN
the industry, I love it and I hate it, right? But the data from the industry is absolutely useless. Okay, as we know, transparency, no one knows what to record, how to record it. The data can't be compared. You can't compare. A data point A with a data point B because that's an apple and that's a pear. So the point is that the data is rubbish. So when I say that between 100 billion and 150 billion new garments are produced every year, you can see that's a big variation. I don't know the truth. But the point is that the majority of those clothes will end up in landfill or incineration within a short, maybe a year from production. No one really knows. Okay, so that's the linear system. So we're up against a beast here because what we're trying to do with many other advocates for sustainable fashion is to make it circular. Okay, so the global economy from furniture to auto to food to fashion, the global total economy is about 7 .2%. Percent circular. So that means as a whole world, with all our clever brains, we've only managed to go 7 .2 % of our economy is circular. In the fashion industry, it's less than 1%. What does that mean? So less than 1 % of the materials that go into the fashion industry in clothes come back as clothes. Okay, that's because we're burning them and chucking them in the landfill. So tiny nonprofit redress, we've got the heart of, you know, Goldman Sachs. We've got the heart and the ambition of a huge government. But really what we do, and it sounds quite basic, but within the enormity of the fashion industry, we found two target audiences who we are educating and inspiring to make change. Now, the two target audiences are designers and consumers. And you might think, oh, well, what about industry? Well, the problem is we've... We have to pick where we can actually influence. So if we look at designers, the reason that we educate designers through multiple programs is because supposedly, whether it's true or not, 80 % of the environmental impact of a product is actually laid out at the design stage. So the designer and the design team is coming up with the product, the materials, the fit, the cut, the repairability, the supply chain, et cetera. So everything's locked in at the design stage. Hilltop, this table, the impact, it's in the design stage. It's actually quite obvious. So we educate designers about circular fashion, basically. And then why consumers? Well, I mean, why consumers? Because obviously the consumer has a lot of power because ultimately we are buying it. And, you know, what fascinates me about the fashion industry is like the fashion and footwear industry is about 2 .4 trillion USD annual revenue. And if you put it into that revenue, into a GDP, it's between the third, fourth and fifth biggest economy. Like the fashion industry is massive, right? So these consumers, you know, we're spending a fortune on trying to elevate ourselves, not just clothe ourselves. We're elevating ourselves. You know, you want to be this today, you want to be that tomorrow. So we try to inspire consumers about their... Now, you can sound like a real nerd.

CHRISTINA DEAN
sound like a real nerd. You've got to be really careful with this. But we want to inspire them around their responsibility, their power, their influence, actually, to make the fashion industry more positive. The problem that we have, honestly, is that trying to get through to a consumer's mind and then their heart and then their... It's very, very difficult when what they want is now, now, now, now, cheap, cheap, cheap. I want more of it. I want more and I want more. And then I'll have more and I'll have it cheaper, please. Now, I'm not poo -pooing consumers for that. But I'm just saying it's a very tough market. It is. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
It is. Yeah. And it is also difficult. I mean, I'll give the consumers discredit. When you turn on social media, you know, 99 out of 100 posts you see is going to be pushing you to buy something. All the sponsors. the NGOs only have so much budget to push the advertising, right? So the more you follow these NGOs and these causes, the more it will show up. But if it wasn't in your habit to begin with, it's never going to show up in your algorithm. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's so important that these are the two target groups that you are focusing on. Consumer, absolutely. Because I don't think they realize, you know, with all the people saying, oh, I can't afford more for better quality. You know, it's not telling you to pay more overall. I'm telling you to use the same budget, but buy less, buy better. And it makes all the difference, you know, if you're buying something that will last you five years, 500 words, whereas something that will fall apart with five washes. Yeah.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Yeah. And that's, I mean, I don't know how old you are. I'm not going to ask a lady, but basically most younger generations to us, younger people than us have been. Like we said with fast fashion, you know, you started your career just when fast fashion was kicking off. And so basically most of the world has only grown up with fast fashion.

CHRISTINA DEAN
of the world has only grown up with fast fashion. Yeah. And the prices of fast fashion. And what I think is very revealing. So number one, I hate to say to people, you must spend more on your clothes because no one wants that. Yes. But the evidence shows us that over the last X, X being 80 years, I'm talking about a typical US.

CHRISTINA DEAN
So number

CHRISTINA DEAN
average annual household expenditure. So this is the US data. Over the last 80 odd years, let's just say, the average household expenditure on clothes has gone from 15 % to about 3%. Yeah. That's an old stat, right? It's really dusty in my brain. It's roughly like that. The point that we're making or I'm making with that is that we're spending less and less and less and less and less of our average household expenditure. And of course, buying more and more and more. So this is exactly your point. It is actually true that people could spend more and buy less. Exactly.

HOIKI LIU
I mean, it's definitely... People don't seem to realize it, but I always tell them, actually, if you look at just the markets in the last 20 or so years,

HOIKI LIU
markets in the last 20 or so years, when you look at inflation in different industries, it's not that fashion hasn't increased in price, but overall what we wear on the daily. has not increased in price. Luxuries has increased massively, but actually your daily pieces has decreased in price. Yeah. And that's because of the cost of labor. Yes. Yeah. But it's not that like the cost of labor is going down. It's also not that productivity is going up, but it's these giants are pushing the suppliers down further down and cutting corners where we can't afford to cut corners. That's why in the past, people will say things like, oh, you know, I have this sweater that's 20 years old. Or an outerwear, a piece of jacket or a coat that's 20, 30 years old, maybe it's passed down by a grandparent and it's in still such good shape. The stitches are still intact. It still looks good. It hasn't lost its structure. It's actually all down to workmanship. It's did you take two days to make that jacket or did you take five days? And there's steps that you cannot cut out in the production line. But if you're with the arrival of all these fast fashion. They cut out all the middle steps where you really bring out quality. Yeah. Yeah. So I think people, it's hard for people to realize that when you're not in the market. Technically, yeah. Well,

CHRISTINA DEAN
Technically, yeah. Well, most people probably can't tell quality. I've got to tell you about this, by the way. So I'm divorced. This is my ex -husband's jacket when he was a teenager. But I've still got it. So I hope he doesn't see this because I rather like it. It's probably 30 years old. But anyway, I'll probably have to give a batch of that.

HOIKI LIU
It's funny because now that you say that, this sweater I'm wearing actually have little holes in it, but it's so cozy. It's like my favorite sweater. I just keep, you know, and I guess because I know how to do it. So I've been stitching it up in ways that people can't really tell. But also my jacket and my purse today. Yeah, sure. This is from my aunt, an aunt of mine. And so this jacket might be as old as me. And it's a leather suede jacket. It's got such beautiful quality workmanship. Yeah. Yeah, that, you know, why would anyone throw it away? Yeah.

CHRISTINA DEAN
And then talking about purchasing online is that, I mean, you will know this better than me, but, you know, the fact that most people are buying, well, 34 % of purchases are done online, is that right? Yes, I think so. A huge amount now. So you're never ever going to look, touch, feel, look at ditching. And also the design could be simplified because people are buying from the front. The back is very simple. So another point now that you brought up online shopping is something that I've spoken to my friends about and people never seem to realize this.

HOIKI LIU
point now that you brought up online shopping is something that I've spoken to my friends about and people never seem to realize this. But because exactly of what you said, when you're buying things online, it's so easy because half the time it's impulse buy. It's something, it's ads that's being fed to you. So you want to look at it and when you look at it, you end up buying it because you, oh, I actually really want something like this at this moment. But especially if it's a new brand. you don't really know what you're getting. And often you look at the comments to see how things are being sized. But if you don't know the brand, for example, I might be buying a pair of shoes. Normally I'll be a size 37, but occasionally 36 and a half, sometimes 37 and a half. So what do you do? Most consumers actually will buy the size above and below and their own size. So every item that you think you want, you're going to get three of delivered to you.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Well, a lot of the big brands are stopping free returns. Okay, that is so good. Because it's each in a margin.

HOIKI LIU
Yes, and I think consumers don't realize that. Like, they think they're doing fine because, you know, it's just like bringing the fitting room back to your own home. And whatever I don't want, I return. You don't feel bad about it as a consumer. And why should you, right? And this is where I think, and this is absolutely right. Consumers shouldn't feel bad because they don't know. But this is where I have to bring up the awareness. It's actually most places do not restock your items when you return. restocking fee is too high. It's going to be more than what they're going to get in their margins and profit. So most of those things end up being binned.

CHRISTINA DEAN
It's going to

CHRISTINA DEAN
and profit.

HOIKI LIU
And this is why when we say, you know, I forgot the exact number, but the amount of produced, there's like a great percentage that goes straight to waste.

CHRISTINA DEAN
And this is the kind of thing. Again, data is rubbish in the fashion industry, but essentially no one knows the truth. But essentially, if we say a lot of commentators say that 30 % of production won't get sold. But that doesn't mean that it's necessarily going to be landfill or incinerated. You never really quite know.

HOIKI LIU
You never really quite know. That's the thing. One of the ways that I've changed my factory, I've told you recently I've downsized my factory. And we're jumping all over the place. We jump down to the manufacturing part. I've told you recently I downsized my factory. And that's actually because one of my clients has been highlighting to me, before COVID, my minimums used to be 300 units. Post -COVID is now, now that I've downsized my factory, is now 50 units minimum. As long as I can negotiate better terms with other suppliers on your fabrics, on your trims. You know, we can make it happen.

CHRISTINA DEAN
know, we can

HOIKI LIU
And the reason I really push for this difference is because when they were ordering 300 from me, the customer told me, like, I only have orders from the different wholesalers, including our own shops, for 260 units. So at least 40 units is going directly two ways. They're not going to destroy the brand name by selling it to an outlet right away. I mean, an outlet actually usually have outlet lines. That has nothing to do with the actual branding. So, yeah, and just learning that really, like, it kind of killed me a little inside, you know? I was like, we spent, like, more than a year putting this stuff together for you. And it costs less for you to buy 300 pieces and to throw away 40 instantly than to buy the amount you need. 260 that you actually needed. Exactly, yeah.

CHRISTINA DEAN
we spent,

CHRISTINA DEAN
needed. Exactly, yeah.

HOIKI LIU
So, I don't know, just hearing that, like, way too many times is... Which actually brings us to one of our other topics is the greenwashing. I feel like this is part of it, right? Like we're always making new policies and things to make sure brands and companies are complying and doing things responsibly. But a lot of times it's just different ways around it.

CHRISTINA DEAN
See, I don't know. I'm going to disagree a bit. Okay. I think it depends what sort of company you're talking about. We'll get to greenwashing, but for me, what's really interesting is that 97 % of the fashion industry's revenue globally comes from the top 20 groups and brands. So, I mean, that's the winner takes all. Those top 20 companies, which are basically luxury, sport, and fast, they own the fashion industry in terms of total revenue. Some of those are listed, and they're obviously well -governed because these are really top, top -level businesses. And I personally don't think that they greenwash. I know it's really contentious. I know there might be many companies that do greenwash that don't have good governance and don't have good legal. I don't know if compliance would come into it.

HOIKI LIU
have good

CHRISTINA DEAN
So that's why I'm going to say I don't really. I do agree with you.

HOIKI LIU
agree with you. It's not like they come out with the intention of greenwashing. It's more like occasionally they're so big, you have to look at things in a really massive sense. And I think it's just, it's different when you're working with a giant and an SME.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Yeah, exactly. That's what I was saying. So for the big beasts that own the fashion industry, I think there's so much risk for them to greenwash. It's one thing I would say. But completely the opposite problem that we've got is that companies do do much more. I'm talking about the big kind of the best ones. They do do so much more than they're able to talk about or willing to talk about. And the reason for that is because they either can't prove it or the risk of being called out for greenwashing, especially in consideration of the fact that there's more anti -greenwashing laws and regulations coming in, has meant that those companies who do great stuff actually don't talk about it. Right. And that's like, I mean, people call it green hushing. Yeah. It's a word that was brought up. It was kind of invented, I don't know, about 15 years ago. I might be wrong on that. But really, so many people are anti -greenwashing for obvious reasons, which we should be. Yes. And I want to say something else on that in a minute. But green hushing is something I feel really negatively about. Yeah. Because it means that we're not telling the customers and the cleaners about the good stuff that we're doing. So I do have brands like that, too,

HOIKI LIU
I do have brands like that, too, because. It's already written in the company policy. When I source fabrics for them, I don't even need to look at anything like virgin polyester. If I'm giving them anything synthetic, it must be recycled. It's not marketed.

CHRISTINA DEAN
It's a pity that. And I think also this comes back to my point about the data in the fashion industry being so useless, is that if a company says this is better than that. Well, they better have a lot of evidence. So we want things to be really, really, really clear. And consumers deserve things to be really, really clear. But it's not always easy to prove that. And that's where that leads to just silence. Because you need to have a big legal budget to be able to defend yourself if you're going to go out with a big claim to say that this is better, better, better, better. Well, prove it. Right, right. Yeah, so I just... I feel, I think where I'm tired is I'm just tired of everyone complaining all the time when there are so many great things actually happening in the industry. That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

CHRISTINA DEAN
That is very true too. Some people are just anti -corporates, anti -capitalism. Yeah. Whatever you say, they will find fault because there is fault in capitalism.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. It's hard also when, the thing is when you're so big. not everyone in the entity is going to have the same voice. So sometimes it also depends on who's louder, you know, occasionally, like we're the sustainable, most of these companies will have their sustainability department. You know, everyone in that department is crazy passionate about what they're doing.

CHRISTINA DEAN
doing.

HOIKI LIU
It comes down to occasionally where, you know, a crisis like COVID hits and we're on the brink of bankruptcy. finance is going to come into play now, you know, what's more important at this moment. So I feel like it's like what you said, because sometimes if they promise something, they can not necessarily come back from it either. So they're very careful. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
This is also not something that we had planned to talk about, but it just occurred to me. I saw briefly in a heading of a headline the other day that, you know, how France was talking about having a fashion hat. fast fashion levy and it's past their direct government policies i don't know how their houses work it's past something it's supposed to go into fault but then it's been pulled off so it's not being talked about anymore and i feel like that's part of the it's not so much green hushing at this moment it's just more what i was saying it's like when the economy is not good these things get pulled out first and yeah

CHRISTINA DEAN
I can't speak specifically to what happened in the last few weeks about the French fast fashion issues, plural, but I suppose it's competing interests, isn't it? The fashion industry has done a lot of good, which has given a lot of development opportunities to many countries in emerging markets. It's a driver for economic growth, and that's absolutely fantastic. We can't take that away. So it's just that there's a price to pay for economic development, which... gives people jobs versus the other price that we pay, which is the pollution that comes with it. And so that's why I suppose that coming back to like sustainability in the fashion industry is so complicated because do you want to trade off one for the other? And so in relation to the fast fashion in France, I mean, again, I can't speak for it with enough intelligence to define it, but there's a... There's a conflict. There's a tension between economic growth and environmental protection.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. Because, I mean, the whole world's been talking about how fast fashion needs to stop. But there's actually data for us to see there is their profits and their growth in their sales. It's growing massively. Massively.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Well, I would say, I mean, fast fashion is entrenched in our global economy. Mm -hmm. And I also believe that fashion consumer, I hate calling them consumers, but we'll call them fashion consumers. If they do buy fast fashion, how do you define it? They can take good care of it. Actually, not all fast fashion falls apart. It's not true. It really is not true. And so I feel like we need to give people the choice to buy inexpensive clothing. And I think that's fantastic. Really, if you buy clothes from fast fashion businesses, let's just say, you're just taking really good care of it. Yeah, exactly. It should last you, actually. And it's not fair just to assume that all fast fashion is actually bad. So it depends on the person who's going to take care of it or not.

CHRISTINA DEAN
it. Yeah, exactly.

HOIKI LIU
So it also is great on the, that's why it's so good that the consumer needs to be educated because so much is on the consumer's mindset. If you care to take care of a piece or not, it makes... all the difference in the longevity of a garment.

CHRISTINA DEAN
a garment. So I'll tell you about this funny project in a nutshell. So I did this project called the 365 Challenge where every day for a whole year, I only wore other people's clothing cast off. So I would go to different recycling centers. It's all post -consumer clothes, like raw from the clothing banks. And so, you know, you'd open up bags and it was basically full of complete and utter rubbish or you'd find designer bags and that, whatever. So I wore a different outfit every day for a year. And the reason that I did it was because I wanted to understand what do people chuck away and why? Like, can I wear it and find out? So the long story cut short is through this extremely entertaining, different outfit a day, all from cast off clothing. It was kind of a seed for a book that we wrote called Dress With Sense. It's called The Conscious Guide to a Practical, The Practical Guide to a Conscious Closet. And it was a... It is a book. It's out everywhere in multiple languages, but it takes a typical consumer. What is a typical consumer? But it takes a typical sort of fashion -loving consumer through quite a basic guide of how to buy, wear, care, and dispose, not a good word, your clothing. And the reason that we wrote it, as I said, is because I spent a whole year. wearing other people's discarded clothes. And actually, do you know what? I look better in other people's discarded clothes. That's my own wardrobe.

HOIKI LIU
I think that's the thing. You never know what's going to surprise you in there. One man's trash is literally everybody else's treasure, right? Yeah.

CHRISTINA DEAN
No, it's funny.

HOIKI LIU
That is great. It's great that you guys have a book. You guys need to have a little, like, story caps. Oh, no, there's a little book going on. But that would be so great for the secondhand shot for the salespeople in there every day. Somebody pick an outfit today. All right. Let's see what else. Okay. So we did cover a lot of how consumers should be driving the sustainability movement. Okay. And brands, however. Okay. Let's see. Which else do we need to talk about? Oh, okay. Let's go back into Asia. Why did you redress and why did you pick Asia as? the spot for you to start and to grow and to expand. Obviously, Asia is a major manufacturing hub. It's also where a lot of consumers are spending, especially in Hong Kong. But what else? What is the draw and the drive for you to be here?

CHRISTINA DEAN
Well, you just answered the question. But there's the truthful answer and then there's the strategic answer. So the truthful answer is just, I'm moved here.

HOIKI LIU
So the

CHRISTINA DEAN
And then I was, when I was a journalist, I just happened to live here. And then I traveled a lot in China and I cycled across China, actually, to really long distance cycling. And so it was very fortuitous that I happened to live here. So that's like the truthful, practical answer. But the strategic, clever answer is actually that, you know, Hong Kong's positioning and sort of within, it fascinates me that you can go to the airport and within five hours you're... flight, no matter where you go, you're within half of the global population. So in Hong Kong, we're literally, we are in the bubbling hot pot of the fashion industry. And that means we've got the production, we've got the consumption, and we've got the waste, we've got the water pollution, and we've got carbon that we all share carbon, obviously. So for that reason, I mean, Asia is just like... Asia's huge. Asia's complicated. Even being Asia -focused is way too complicated for us because country X, Y, and Z all have different legal systems. And so we're never going to achieve everything in Asia. And I'll definitely go to my deathbed and we won't even scratch China because China is so vast. But the reason that we're Asia -focused, even though we know it's a bit of a challenging, huge market, is because It's such a dynamic part of the world for the fashion industry in terms of its history in the fashion industry, textile, garment, and then its fast -growing emerging consumer markets. And also, I think what really interests me is, obviously, we've seen for such a long time, wrongly so, that Asia has just been like this factory for the world. And obviously, we now, thankfully, know that that's not the case. We've got this big domestic market everywhere. particularly China, obviously. And so that means that, you know, Asia's making for Asia, China's making for China. And I think that's brilliant.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. I actually have opened that up to a lot of my international customers, especially with all the, you know, the trade wars and the policies that's happening. You know, and I said to be truly sustainable, it does make sense to localize everything, actually. There's nothing wrong with that, you know. But how do we actually get to that? localization where it's like a franchise where you know you know what you're getting from McDonald's when you go to McDonald's even though it's in different locations made differently right so I've given them the option now to you know I'll produce for your Asia you know what you need in Asia and then if I do the developments and the patterns and the samples for you I'll sell that to you at a separate cost so you can get that produced locally I can also get a package together for you to have your the fabrics you need the trims you need So you can get that done there. And it also will help that local economy. So I think, you know, it is very disruptive to the industry. But if we can slowly start to adopt these changes, it will really help. And actually, I want to say all of this does stem from the consumer. Because even though it is government policies, you do hear a lot of consumers saying, you know, they want to protect their culture, they want to protect their jobs, their localization of things.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to sell you straight on. I'm so fed up with consumers. I'm fed up with the hope. Maybe tomorrow I hope we'll be back. Why do I say all that? Because, like, for the beginning 10 years, let's just say, when I was doing this, vote with your dollar. Yes, yes, yes. People, consumers, we can do it, you know. Very fickle. It's just like it's never -ending. The problem is, honestly, we don't need time. Of course, we've got to educate consumers. We don't really have time to sit down and explain to everyone, you know, the world's on fire. We're still trying to teach people. So that's where policy obviously comes out massively.

CHRISTINA DEAN
We don't

CHRISTINA DEAN
that's where policy obviously comes out massively. And it's going to come in. It is. You know, the business of fashion cites that there are 35 pieces of sustainability -linked legislation due to come in force in the next couple of years. That's really exciting. Yes, across multiple parts of it. sustainability, what that means. Right. And so I think if you think back to 2005, was it 2005 when the WTO opened the exports from China? That's pretty much around that time. Something I can't remember.

HOIKI LIU
I can't remember. But it was around, yeah, I think it was that year. And they dropped the quota system and things like that. So suddenly,

CHRISTINA DEAN
And they dropped the quota system and things like that. So suddenly, bang. Actually, it was. It's the year after I started. So around that time. So if we look at that, it's taken 20 years. And I'm not just talking about removing of the WTO. I'm talking about it's taken the world, let's just say the whole world, 20 years to wake up to the fact that fast fashion, and I'm not going to just paint fast fashion. Yeah, fashion, industry and all. Exactly. And so now legislation, of course, it takes a long time for legislation to catch up. Yeah. But legislation is catching up. And it's on the heels of the fashion industry. And I think everybody starts to understand that. However, despite the fact that it's written about and spoken about, from my understanding, and I'm not an expert on the manufacturing side, but I don't think that the manufacturers are yet too worried about upcoming legislation. I don't think so.

HOIKI LIU
don't think so. Not at all. Even when I speak to them about the DPP that everybody's talking about, they're like, oh, okay, so the legislation, we're in talks of it now. It's going to start coming in three years, maybe three, four years. And then they're going to give you three, four years buffer time. So we'll deal with it. You know, we've got like eight years, maybe 10 years. It's going to, you know, if the economy doesn't get any better, they're going to push it back. So I feel like this is how the manufacturing end of the industry feels. And, you know, to be honest, a lot of in the industry, a lot of people who still in manufacturing, they are maybe in their 60s or so. So they're just looking at like, whoa.

CHRISTINA DEAN
But actually, I want to talk something else because something else really insightful happened, at least I read about it a year ago or so. So in the EU, 70 % of the textiles and apparel that's imported into the EU comes from APAC.

HOIKI LIU
comes from

CHRISTINA DEAN
And the EU does have some of the toughest, most comprehensive legislation coming into place. I read a really interesting analyst report that is saying that investors need to urgently upskill the APAC supply chain in order to future -proof EU legislation. I think so. That it's a business risk. Yeah. So it's out there in data in terms of financial analyst reports. You have to upskill Asian designers, manufacturers to be able to import, right, or export to EU. But from my understanding, it's just like, you know, it's on paper right now, but it's not actually in practice. I don't think it's in any practice.

HOIKI LIU
practice. Yeah. And where you're like, you're tired of consumers actually being manufacturing. I'm tired of manufacturers. But yeah, like, I mean, I see people shifting things like, you know, if they're large enough, they'll be like, oh, can you? Actually, even my customers ask me like. can you shift our production to Vietnam, to Cambodia, to Myanmar, you know?

CHRISTINA DEAN
to Cambodia,

HOIKI LIU
And because I work in such a mid -to -luxe market, and I always tell my consumers, like, don't come to me if you're looking for the cheapest manufacturer because I'm not playing in that price war, right? And I know what I'm good at. I'm not just going to give you something as quick as possible so we can make the largest profit. So, you know, when you come to me, my skills take time. But that's the thing I'm really interested in,

CHRISTINA DEAN
that's the thing I'm really interested in, that sort of... If I use the word power balance, I don't know the better word for power. But, you know, thank goodness manufacturers have come up. Starting to be equal partners. But actually, you know, I'm not going to say. I still don't think they're equal.

HOIKI LIU
still don't think they're equal. We're still very far from equal. But I think the fact that nowadays there's less manufacturers that's willing to undercut you the moment they know your price. It's already, you know, like when I go to these. our gatherings for the industry gatherings we all say like we shouldn't do that and I agree in Hong Kong most of us aren't doing that it might be some other factories that want to go direct that want to take shortcuts that's doing that but there is definitely less and less of that nowadays and with COVID I think so many of us were burnt so hard during COVID that now manufacturers are starting to demand a deposit and things like that so And, you know, on my end, because I've actually dropped my minimums and it's hard to find a factory that's willing to cater to small units. But then I tell my customers, like, you know, we have what we stand for also, which in sustainability, it's a huge thing for our factory and our company that I'm not going to, you know, compromise on. So if you're going to ask me to order you, you know, when you want me to make your production and you want everything packed in a poly bag, I can only get you. The least I can do is a recycled polyester bag. You know, it's got the recycle four or five, you know. And if you're willing to just match me on the little bit, I won't even take all your money for it, but just a little bit more, I'll get you a biodegradable bag, you know. And I think that's going to up your story too. When you're getting from, I feel like when you're coming to me to get an elevated product. you should actually go for an elevated product and show that to your customers too.

CHRISTINA DEAN
I think you've got all the solutions. Really? Do you want this?

HOIKI LIU
Whenever I talk to the industry about these things, they think I'm absolutely insane. People look at me and they say, you downsized your factory. What's that? Nobody wants to downsize. Actually, I'm working in my family business. This was my father's factory that he opened.

CHRISTINA DEAN
that he

HOIKI LIU
It took him a little bit to accept that. But I'm very lucky. I have a very supportive family that they can see the trend of the future. They're willing to listen to these talks that I give. So they get it a little bit better. And, you know, my dad's solution to it is, well, I'll just step away. So I don't have to watch all of it, you know, go down.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Well, I'd like to ask you about revenue, but maybe we'll do that.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah, definitely a hard question to answer at this moment. But yeah, like I said, I think it's important for us to be disruptive and to just show the industry, it's not always about making the profits right now. The profits can also always come later, but you need to build that foundation for that future. If there's no future there, we're just talking about what you're making this year or next year.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Well, that's the benefit of the family business, though. You know, it's proven that there's more sort of future proofing, future planning, because you're not having, obviously, transient CEOs coming in for five minutes.

HOIKI LIU
Yes, yes, yes. That's expecting, you know, results and profits for the shareholders.

HOIKI LIU
Okay, I'd like to finalize this podcast today with you, this interview with you, by asking you a few final thoughts. Really just to share with the audience, what are some practices that you think anybody can do and that you practice, that sustainable practice that, you know, maybe if we know about it, we can consider picking it up? Particularly with fashion and clothing. And no, anything lifestyle -wise.

CHRISTINA DEAN
And no,

CHRISTINA DEAN
I have a sort of slight mental problem, which is that every time I put something in the bin, I sort of, I feel bad. That's not a nice thing. So I suppose the answer to that question is just to be so aware that, you know, when I put something in the bin, it actually hasn't gone away. It's just going somewhere else. Yes, yes, yes. And I think for me, that's been, it makes me, and I'm terrible, honestly. I'm absolutely useless. But that one act, I feel bad every time I chuck something away because it's just going somewhere else. And I think that's a big thing to wake up to because once you start waking up to that, you just see waste. It's a bit of a curse. That's the thing. So I wouldn't wish my brain on anyone. And I'm very happy. But it comes with a slight burden, that awareness. I think it's important because everyone does think that.

HOIKI LIU
think it's important because everyone does think that. When you think that you're throwing something away, that it's just, poof, it's away. It's gone now, but it's not. It's just at somebody else's doorstep, really.

CHRISTINA DEAN
Exactly. So I suppose that's one thing. And on the positive side, I suppose the older I get, I suppose, and I'm not very good at doing it, and it sounds very like... sort of woke or to say sort of self -care it's something that we all need to do I definitely don't do it which is why I'm saying that in itself is unsustainable so I suppose the weller we are the well and the better that we will work with our colleagues make better decisions I suppose Ultimately, you could say that sustainability is about taking good care of one another and self -love and care. I know that sounds really big, but I do think it's really quite true.

HOIKI LIU
It is very important. I think if you don't even care about yourself, how can I ask you to care about the earth? It does have to stem for yourself. You have to care about the place you're in and what you're surrounding yourself with. Thank you so much for those tips. I'd love to have you back because I'm sure... We will have more to discuss soon with all the things that Redress has to have, that's going to be happening with Redress this year. Well,

CHRISTINA DEAN
I've been around 20 years, so I'm here.

CHRISTINA DEAN
All right, thank you.