The Conscious Cut

Ep. 6 Fashioning the Future: Navigating the Metaverse and Digital Commerce w/ Olivia Lee

• Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this exciting episode of The Conscious Cut, host Hoiki Liu sits down with Olivia Lee, founder of Livvium and a trailblazer in digital fashion and metaverse consultancy. With 15 years of expertise in brand strategy, Olivia unravels the transformative potential of the metaverse, AI tools, and digital retail for sustainable fashion. From debunking myths about virtual platforms to exploring the three types of digital fashion—real-life, online real-life, and unreal-life—she highlights how these innovations can reduce waste and empower consumers. Olivia also shares insights on integrating digital product passports and immersive commerce to create transparent, sustainable fashion experiences. Join us to discover how technology is reshaping the industry and cutting through the noise for a more responsible future.

Olivia Lee is founder of LIVVIUM, a web3 transformation and metaverse consultancy.

Thank you for listening!

HOIKI LIU
Today, we're thrilled to welcome Olivia Lee to the podcast. Olivia is the founder of Livvium, a retail tech and metaverse consultancy, and she's a recognized leader in digital fashion and emerging technologies. Named one of the top 100 women of the future and a committee member of the Green Lane Committee, which is a part of the BMV Foundation, she's been at the foreground of exploring the metaphors. AI tools and immersive commerce for global brands. So welcome, Olivia.

OLIVIA LEE
Thank you so much. It's great to be here on your show.

HOIKI LIU
Okay, so let's see. With 15 years of experience, do I need to go through this part actually? If you like. Okay, so with 15 years of experience in brand strategy and marketing, you're now focusing on helping brands creating and navigating the web three space and digital fashion, metaphors, digital retail transformation. So your work is pushing boundaries of innovation because we're not really there yet. So I'm so glad to have you here to tell us more about it. Tell us what we should be doing or how to navigate this way. So how to explore it.

OLIVIA LEE
Sounds wonderful. Thank you for that lovely introduction and for setting the stage of what I do. And you explained it perfectly. Thank you.

HOIKI LIU
I try because I feel so... This space confused me, to be very honest. So I'm very privileged to have you here to explain to me today and our audience, because I'm sure I'm not the only one that's confused.

OLIVIA LEE
Not a problem at all, because this is why I love joining these type of shows, because I think it gives me an opportunity to share what I've learned firsthand, understanding some of the latest technologies, having a chance to test out a lot of these products. And at the same time, I break it down in the easiest way. to share with others. Because I think that is the only way we can move one step forward and have more people join the space and use it to kind of perfect whatever industry that they're in.

HOIKI LIU
And it's important that we're taking these steps because I think I've told you before, the first time I was introduced to the metaphors, what I heard about it and then what I saw, it was such a drastic contrast. I was expecting it to be all like... final fence to see it. And then it ended up being very 2D and very flat. So it was hard for me to imagine the transformation, but obviously it's come a long way since those days. I mean, I haven't really done any diving into it again, but please tell us more about it.

OLIVIA LEE
Okay. So maybe I start off with a little bit about what the metaverse is and isn't. And Ashley, to your point, it has made many steps forward. But it was propelled into the world during a time when we were all kind of maybe during the kind of epidemic, the pandemic situation. So that was sort of the catalyst that kind of propelled this thing forward. As with NFTs, as with Web3, there was a brand new kind of stages across every type of innovation. And Metaverse was one of them. So what Metaverse is and isn't, right? So to your point, you thought it was going to be like Final Fantasy, right? In terms of like high fidelity, lots of users online and interaction,

HOIKI LIU
interaction, right? Yeah, because it's similar to what you said, because it was pushed to us during a time of, during the pandemic where people were all locked in, right? It's almost like this is the other alternative world that you can go into now since you can't actually physically go outside. I mean, you'll think it will be a little bit closer to reality. And I mentioned Final Fantasy. It's because of exactly, it's the high definition, you know, pictures and videography that you see. But when I go there and it was not, it was very disappointing. Let me ask you this. Which, do you recall which metaverse you came across? Which name? Which platform? When did you go, if you recall? I don't remember the original one that was shown to me, but then afterwards, Sandbox was one that got really popular. So I jumped into the Sandbox world and I just thought, wow, this was really glitchy. Like the more time I spent on it, the longer it was making me dizzy, giving me a headache. Okay. Okay. So we'll touch upon all of those things.

OLIVIA LEE
we'll touch upon all of those things. Just to kind of talk about what is the metaverse, right? So I'll give you some of the major kind of tenants, what makes it the metaverse. There's a few things that it has to happen. So the original definition of the metaverse will have consists of things like it's massively scaled, which means many people can go on it, right? It's talking about a interconnected. network of immersive digital platforms. So it should be many different platforms. So like you mentioned, the sandbox, maybe games done by Unreal Engine, like Epic Games, like, I don't know, like Fortnite, Roblox, Final Fantasy, all that kind of stuff. It's all interconnected, okay? Another definition is it's all synchronously and persistently happening at the same time,

HOIKI LIU
right? So

HOIKI LIU
like, I don't know,

OLIVIA LEE
at the same time, live rendered. OK, so these are all parts of it means things. Once something is done, you don't get to reset the game and redo it. Things that's been performed stays on the game. It's like etched in there for life. OK, then other parts of it means you could have unlimited users. So there's no like. capacity of how many people can be in the room. There could be different kind of servers happening, I suppose. That could be one of the limitations right now. But it's about unlimited amount of people. So imagine if you have a concert and people from around the world can all join in at the same time with no lagging, which is some of the things you pointed out with the sandbox, etc. But this is another definition of it.

HOIKI LIU
then other

HOIKI LIU
is some of

OLIVIA LEE
Synchronous, persistent. live rendered and other things would be that's very important you as a user gets to have ownership of your data and there's a continuity of everything you collect so whereby it would be like your communications some of the things that you've earned things that you've bought stays with you that jumps across the different worlds okay now now that i gave you this glorious definition of what it should be right then we have to step back and say where it is today yes okay so i've been in this space since 2021 the first metaverse experience i went on it's similar to yours i went on the central land for a music festival in 2021 i remember it was paris hilton doing her dj set and on that note paris hilton has always been ahead of the game so she was playing a dj set i went into the metaverse but back to my definition it's live right it's live time when i went there was nobody on it because I'm based in Hong Kong. Yes. And the concert happened at a specific time in New York 12 hours prior, right? So you go in there, there's nothing happening. So at that time, the metaverse is still requiring more people to visit. And to your point, the rendering and the pixel, what we're comfortable with and what we see now was not so much what we saw back then. Partly it's because Some of the designers and the founders who created these metaverse, they might be just purely engineers. They understand the concept of Web3 and developing something that's decentralized, but they were not thinking from a customer and user journey point of view. So they made it very voxelated or pixelated. Maybe it was like a coding thing, you know? So these are the things that's kind of happening in the metaverse. is not so easily jumping in interoperable is the word we use. So it's not so easy to jump from one game to the other. So this is what's stopping us to enjoy this beautiful idea of the metaverse.

HOIKI LIU
is what's

OLIVIA LEE
idea of the

HOIKI LIU
metaverse. Right. Yeah, because it's not exactly like... In the real life, I'm me, no matter where I go, I'm the same physical person. But in a metaphor, you couldn't exactly do that. I can't bring my avatar from Final Fantasy into Roblox and into wherever else. I have to cater back to that system. Yeah,

OLIVIA LEE
not yet. But the goal is, the idea is that those items that you buy... Those items that you earned, the ones that you played hours for, or you used your real money to switch into their in -world gaming currency to buy it, they belong to you. And you should be able to bring them across the world such that your avatar can wear it. However your avatar is presented. That is the... ideal idealistic term and that is the truth i believe in and what i'm working towards too is that okay so coming to a cost point understanding is that going to cost a lot more for for the integration to be across platforms i am not technical enough to answer all those things but i think with the kind of advancements in ai and ai technology general ai and and like machine learning and llm all that kind of stuff

HOIKI LIU
that okay so coming to a cost point understanding is that going to cost a lot more for for the integration to be across platforms i

OLIVIA LEE
am not technical enough to answer all those things but i think with the kind of advancements in ai and ai technology general ai and and like machine learning and llm all that kind of stuff It's going to facilitate the move so much. The difference between one Roblox dataset and another platform's dataset doesn't need humans to do the reformatting. I would imagine AI will speed that up faster than we expected because they would be able to talk between codes and come up with something. That is the idealistic thinking. So that's one step. closer, I would imagine, with the usage of AI. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
So let me get another understanding. For Roblox, for example, right now, I know there's a lot of different games on that platform. Can your character be worrying? Because I see a lot of brands tapping into Roblox. Like this is like the major place that they're tapping into in the so -called metaphors. Not so -called, in the metaphors. That would be the closest.

OLIVIA LEE
That would be the closest. definition of metaverse right now that has a lot of users because you need a lot of users and unlimited users to really fully encompass that definition right right and it it takes over their entertainment you can create there you can earn money there's marketplace in the more loose sense of what a metaverse is or more specifically an integrated virtual platform which is some of these gaming yeah it is the best definition of what it is so that makes it a little bit more

HOIKI LIU
that has

OLIVIA LEE
can create there you can earn money there's marketplace in the more loose sense of what a metaverse is or more specifically an integrated virtual platform which is some of these gaming yeah it is the best definition of what it is so that makes it a little bit more solid and foreseeable of what we're going to tap into which is gaming is a big part of e -commerce as in digital commerce right is a big part of community is a big part of creation and ownership so that's the closest that we see that's a driving force right now and i mean i guess we have to be realistic about the world the way the world is moving forward nowadays is

HOIKI LIU
now and i mean i guess we have to be realistic about the world the way the world is moving forward nowadays is Kids really aren't just out there playing soccer and basketball or going swimming. They are spending a lot of time gaming. Yeah. So, okay.

HOIKI LIU
Another part of it, because, I mean, I love and hate Roblox. I know it's like everyone's talking about it in the fashion industry with games and metaphors crossing over. But as a parent, it's not somewhere that I want to dive into. But okay, let me bring it back closer to what I understand and what I'm doing then with actual fashion in real life. And how would that... and AI tools and digital retail, how does that all cross over? Does that cross over with the metaphors too? Absolutely.

OLIVIA LEE
Right? Yeah. Okay. So the idea of fashion, right? It's something wearable and tangible, right? It's a very massive industry, right? But then digital fashion, in my understanding, has always exists, but it was a different usage. It was... a tool or a software that your designers are using, such as Cloth3D or Style3D, to create the clothing, have all of the sizing, and then comes up with, what is that word? What's a packet? It's like a packet for you guys can print out and manufacture. Like a graded spec. Yeah, so the specifications, right? But then now the definition has changed a little bit more. So to your point about Roblox and how it taps into the metaverse, I'd like to tell you the three types of digital fashion just very quickly. And I'm sure we'll get into a deep kind of conversation about it. I see there's three types and naturally they all kind of intersect with each other. So there's no clean cut, but I think of it as three. First one, I'd like to call it like in real life digital fashion. Okay. These are things that you can touch, you can see, you can buy, you can wear, and you can wash it. OK, so that itself would have something like a digital twin in a sense in that it has a digital product passport.

HOIKI LIU
the specifications,

OLIVIA LEE
digital twin in a sense in that it has a digital product passport. So in other words, it's something of an official receipt that tells you that this item you bought was purchased when and where, you know, it's like a forever receipt that doesn't fade. OK, so that's in real life fashion that I'm sure you're more familiar with. The second type, I'd like to call it to be like in real life digital fashion. That is the one that I think most people, it's probably not as common, but most people will start to get. That's how I got into it was in real life digital. In real life digital. Oh, sorry, sorry. I said it wrong. Online real life. Online real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Online real life. So that is where clothes do not exist in real life. So those are the stuff that you superimpose onto your body. Okay. And why I think that's interesting, that is the one that's going to affect us.

HOIKI LIU
Okay.

OLIVIA LEE
As consumers, you as a manufacturer or a brand owner to talk to and communicate and engage with your audience that buys it in real life. So virtual try -on, like using AI sizing, using it to kind of explore your fantasies as a designer that in real life you couldn't touch because of material costs. Maybe it defies, it doesn't defy gravity. Like you can do things like that. So that's like the... online real life okay and the last one i like to call it unreal life digital fashion but i have heard people call it bigger than life okay fashion which i think is even better suited it's for things that are purely on the virtual platform so that is the gaming that is the roblox those are the skins that people buy to level up those are purely in the i suppose metaverse and the virtual platform that doesn't It would be on your funny character that looks like a Lego block, you know, and not so much on your hyper personalized body that helps you make decisions. Right.

HOIKI LIU
I understand. And I mean, it would be great if that's where sustainability would come in a big part is, you know how with real life fashion right now, people in the last few years, I don't know how this became a thing during COVID because when no one was going out during COVID. we popped up with many trends you know and it's so many we had so many many trends cottagecore mafia yeah like and i'm just like oh my god like there's so many trends that people can't even catch up with and to be honest for me a lot of them it's not necessarily a trend

OLIVIA LEE
so many we

HOIKI LIU
had so many many trends cottagecore mafia yeah like and i'm just like oh my god like there's so many trends that people can't even catch up with and to be honest for me a lot of them it's not necessarily a trend It's different people styling instead. It's just how people... They just put a hashtag on it and, you know,

OLIVIA LEE
and i'm

OLIVIA LEE
just put a hashtag on it and, you know,

HOIKI LIU
it was trending. And I always say, like, I understand for the younger generation, and it will be a lot of the kids that's in the metaphors nowadays, you know, the Gen Zs, they do kind of grow through this growth in the way they dress themselves, right? Like, they are, in a way, when they're first discovering fashion, going through many so -called mini... aesthetics to see what suits them and if this kind of mini trends or mini aesthetics can be moved onto a digital platform then you can see very well what will be suitable for you without having to physically go through so many pieces that you'll buy and just throw away that is a nice way of putting it so to your point I think during that kind of stage where all of this took off was

OLIVIA LEE
is a nice way of putting it so to your point I think during that kind of stage where all of this took off was people were kind of stuck, right? So that's why, yeah. Yes, you're right. Yeah. But with this digital fashion, I thought that was the start of TikTok.

HOIKI LIU
yeah.

OLIVIA LEE
was the start of TikTok. All of these things blew up because we were all stuck at home. Everyone was just trying to find things to keep themselves busy, right? What came out of it was, I thought was those trends that you talk about, but... All of the social media and the blow up of all these social media platforms actually created something that is very detrimental to the entire fashion industry, which is excess consumption. So we are buying a lot more. And mind you, things are being shipped to you a lot faster. You literally can buy something today and you'll get it by the time you get home. And of course, maybe the costing of fabrics and everything is cheaper and everything. Use wear ones and throw away. Why? Because they want to wear that for the trend for that moment. So how digital fashion and what you just brought up is such a nice way to wrap how I process all of this and how it does prevent, like it will help with sustainability. It will help with some sort of fashion waste. And at the same time, it still fulfills someone's need to create content. Okay. So let me tell you a story. why I wrapped this around my head. I think in 2022, I was invited my digital avatar, which is called Livium, which is the co -founder of my company, I'd like to call her.

HOIKI LIU
called Livium,

OLIVIA LEE
She was invited for Metaverse Fashion Week on the Central Land. And then given that, I was invited to an event. And the first thing that came to mind was like everything in real life, when you get invited to an event, like what should I wear, right? So then my avatar will be out and about and going to these events. Like there'll be like 15 events across the digital, like the metaverse space. So I needed an item. So then I didn't have anything at the time. And it wasn't as common to get so many one -of -one pieces and you need something special. So I went to a digital fashion house, a friend of mine that owned it. And I asked, can I borrow something to wear? Because my avatar is going to be at this metaverse fashion week. I'm going to make content. I will tag your item. Stuff that people influencers do in real life, which I am not in real life, but that's what they do. So that fashion house dropped that one of one outfit into my wallet, which is equivalent to my account or my mailbox or my home address. And my avatar was wearing that item straight away.

HOIKI LIU
real life,

OLIVIA LEE
After I wore that item. I could return it back to her. And she was like, no, no, no, you just keep it. So that incident made me think that mindset, the psychological mindset of ownership. If people in real life can take the same idea of trying on a digital fashion item just for likes, just for tags, just for novelty and help convert. your followers to actually want to buy the piece isn't it ticking all the boxes for them like as an influencer like I highly doubt that influencers who are buying stuff or getting free stuff are they like everything they buy for the the viral you know because it's a trending item maybe they get gifted the item and they wear it once and that's it yeah i'm sure they'll find other ways to to you know sell it or whatever but wouldn't that actually kind of make sense like this new model yeah could work yeah you know i mean for my own business in this sense because yeah you also came to me and asked to do t -shirts there's actually been a lot of various clients that's been coming to me to do very simple t -shirts you know

HOIKI LIU
buy for

HOIKI LIU
yeah you know i mean for my own business in this sense because yeah you also came to me and asked to do t -shirts there's actually been a lot of various clients that's been coming to me to do very simple t -shirts you know Because my minimum is so low now compared to your average where you can still get made to order, but at a low minimum.

OLIVIA LEE
to your

HOIKI LIU
So I was thinking about all of that because I should be having a platform where people can just, you know, click what they want and kind of put something together and just test the market, maybe on a digital, because we have moved into 3D. So, you know, put it on a 3D avatar instead of making so many physical samples. And even for my traditional businesses, that's what we've been. trying to work towards it's been proving to be more difficult because of the complexity of the other things that we made for for down jackets for example or for like things with interlining and outer shell fabrics whereas a t -shirt is much more simple it's basically just three pan like you know three panels of fabric collar a front and a backing and put it together and you've got it so It does make sense for those things to go digital before it ever goes into physical. Well,

OLIVIA LEE
there's lots of advantage of digital fashion. Like from the point of view from the designer, when you first have the creation, you're probably already using that software to create it. And then naturally, if you use it with the right format, you can put it onto different platforms. And it could be revenue generating as one thing. But you can also find out if people gravitate to that item. They can try it on to see how it fits before they buy it. They can place an order, just like traditionally, like a crowdfunding. Like, do you want it? If you want it, you place an order. You can also use it as a storytelling gimmick. Because we're all talking about storytelling. I like the idea that as a designer, maybe it was inspired from a trip to somewhere beautiful and, I don't know, like an exotic place. All of those kind of ideas, your customers don't really get to see that. They don't get to go into your brain. But with something like a digital fashion, they can try it on. And possibly see augmented reality or type of visualization that kind of brings the story all together. So there's so many ways digital fashion can be used from like the designer's point of view, from the supplier's point of view, see if things fit in real time. And even from like purchasing point of view and after purchase, the sales. There's so many things that can be used, which is why I really try to talk about. the usage of having 3d asset creation this would be a very much standard that companies will start to convert and having instead of flat images they may very well have 3d assets for all of these usages yeah because i mean from what you just said just now i didn't want to interrupt you but there were so many points where i was like oh i want to say something about this i want to say tell me but so first of all like actually our company is looking at opening

HOIKI LIU
because i mean from what you just said just now i didn't want to interrupt you but there were so many points where i was like oh i want to say something about this i want to say tell me but so first of all like actually our company is looking at opening t -shirt competition but the original thoughts of it was to only open it to students okay for a sustainability t -shirt competition it's basically a crowdfunding idea where you know we help them put their ideas together in a digital format but it was still very much going to be a 2d idea and just see you know whoever's t -shirts gets over 50 units we're going to help you produce it you know and at the end of the day you see who's gotten the most orders kind of thing but Now that you said you can actually, it should be able that people should be able to try it on and get a view. We definitely have to talk more on that to see how we can bring that into the competition. That sounds like a great competition.

OLIVIA LEE
That sounds like a great competition. Please open it beyond students so I can join.

HOIKI LIU
No, so from, because as we're building it right now and we've got so many customers that are just coming to us that just wants to make, you know, small procurements of t -shirts, we're considering opening this platform to the general public. So anyone who wants to test some t -shirts, test a new brand, they can have that opportunity. What a great way to bring people together.

OLIVIA LEE
together. You're really driving the creativity, having more people come together and see, like it could become a new. It could change their lives in many ways, just a competition. But the costliness to create something, the barrier of entry has become a lot lower because they are able to use your platform and showcase their idea, maybe their artwork on a t -shirt without having to print any that no one's going to buy. Yes, exactly. Right? So I like that idea. We need to talk more about that after.

HOIKI LIU
For sure. And also, the other point that I wanted to bring up, which is something that we've mentioned before, is about how people actually shop online. Oh, yeah. Because I was an online shopper, too, during COVID. I was a big online shopper. I mean, it was almost hard to turn away during COVID because even though none of us had anywhere to go, everyone was posting things online. Everyone was posting things online. Everyone was on there. I was luring you to just, you know,

OLIVIA LEE
do it for the gram. That's the digital life. Yes. Your digital identity and your persona is just as important. It could be different from your in real life, but you're curating your digital life for people to see. Right. You know, so there is that kind of need for digital fashion, I think. So at the same time,

HOIKI LIU
at the same time, when we were doing that, because especially when you were trying something new, like a new brand, for example, you really don't know what size you are in that. Okay. So you end up buying, you know, your regular size and maybe out of your size, upper size gown, depending on the comments. Or if there's no comments, you get all three sizes and then you get, you know, you try all those on and you return what you don't need. Thinking that, you know, you're still, you did your part. You kept that piece that you want. You didn't just randomly order 10 things and then return all 10 things. Yeah. You still kept the things that resonated with you, but actually. The honest truth is most returns are just discarded. That's shocking. I didn't know that.

OLIVIA LEE
that. That makes me want to use this as a reason to implement why sizing and the hyper -personalization of the sizing to matter. Because I would imagine people who buy clothing, even though a lot of this whole logistics and such is very easy for return now, they still don't want to do it. I don't buy... two sizes on purpose just so i want to return one i bought two is because i don't know what my sizes are so this is like a big problem with what i think is with the online e -commerce shopping experience and i talk about this a lot because all too often you would buy you might feel like okay i'm only gonna buy what i need so i just buy this yeah i only buy what i want but you buy two

HOIKI LIU
all too often you would buy you might feel like okay i'm only gonna buy what i need so i just buy this yeah i only buy what i want but you buy two Or like it'll come and then you realize, you know, it's always from the beginning when you first start doing online shopping, you realize, I really like this pair of shoes, but it doesn't actually fit me. So you go back and you order a size up. If you're lucky, it could be gone. It could be gone. This is why you buy two. I don't know why you buy two. Or if you buy one, it's actually, in a way, it's worse because you're doing the extra things. You know, so there was no way to win around this. But there were companies at one point, I remember saying they would send you.

OLIVIA LEE
yeah i only buy what i want but you buy two

HOIKI LIU
what basically looks like undergarments. It's like a skin -tight, tall -up or leggings with dots on it so they can kind of get an idea of size. But I don't even remember when this was happening. But obviously, it was happening at a time when technology hasn't actually caught up. And it was costly to scale across those e -commerce sites.

OLIVIA LEE
-commerce sites. That was the biggest problem. So do you think going forward,

HOIKI LIU
do you think going forward, this is something... Because I saw you tried on something. And that got me thinking and you tried on something on LinkedIn. I don't remember what it was called, but you were like, you know, you got your avatar tour to try on all these different garments. Okay. Yeah. So what was that about? And was that realistic or is that technology coming along? It's definitely coming along.

OLIVIA LEE
you were like,

OLIVIA LEE
coming along. It's definitely improved. I have also tried what you said. Like I went to get a body scan. I think it was like. 2015 or 2015 around there i went to get a body scan so i i i consciously wanted to know my sizes but there was a like a problem with it it doesn't correlate with what i'm buying online like those sizes online comes in like a very flat excel sheet looking chart that you're like convert like it just doesn't work right so that has come a long way What you're mentioning about is a new AI sizing styling platform. And there are starting to be many of these now, but the one that you're talking about was recently launched and I was a beta tester for it, which is always fun. What you do is now you can visualize how an item looks on you before you purchase it. But there are still some barriers to this sort of idea. That item, it's interesting to see your likeness to try on something because frankly, I bet you you agree with me, Hoiki. It's like when you go online to shop at one of your favorite shops and you are still deciding what size you're buying, you are looking at a model that looks absolutely nothing like you. And she's still in a very 2D way where you have to press your mouse, like clicking it.

HOIKI LIU
you. And

OLIVIA LEE
it. Like maybe you're lucky it's 360, but usually it doesn't. make it any better for me like seeing how it looks on her does not help me decide if it looks good on me you know so this new platform will be the solution of that i think of it more like a styling and how does it see how do you see it on yourself so it's one step forward for sure yeah i don't think this platform so far can figure out the sizing solution but i'm pretty sure they're working on it it's just that it has yet to launch it's purely

HOIKI LIU
know so

OLIVIA LEE
don't think this platform so far can figure out the sizing solution but i'm pretty sure they're working on it it's just that it has yet to launch it's purely available, scalable. A lot of these AI things are open source now. It's more collecting the data set. So that's what we need more people to try it on to collect the data set. But to your point, you can see yourself wearing something now. So isn't that so much better than seeing it on a model? So that's the platform that you're talking about. Right. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
It's fun. It's exciting because I think it just helps gives us clarity. Yeah. So at least we know how to look. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it's very easy to go.

OLIVIA LEE
Yeah. And it's very easy to go. There's different ways to onboard onto this platform. This one is ways that we know best that's easy. Upload two selfies or different angles. So they obviously do a good kind of pinpoint of your features, create your likeness. And then you upload two of your full body pictures. So then they can integrate that into the platform. So you can then look at the clothing that... you want to try on and see it and the fun thing about this is it would jam out new outfits maybe it's very like personalized to your algo what you're looking at and it would draw in inspiration so from a brand's point of view and you as a personal like personal point of view you are getting new ideas right right is that gonna help excess consumption no yeah that is fun yes yes yes

HOIKI LIU
that gonna help excess

OLIVIA LEE
consumption no yeah that is fun yes

HOIKI LIU
that is fun

OLIVIA LEE
yes yes

HOIKI LIU
And it makes sense because like I said, just knowing what looks good on you, what you're actually catering towards will help you figure out your style at the end of the day without having to try on actually a million piece of physical garments before you figure it out.

OLIVIA LEE
the day without

OLIVIA LEE
And this is what I love about virtual try -on in stores. I don't know about you, but I'm lazy, which is why I like online shopping. I rather just try it on at my own convenience. But if you were to walk by a store, imagine that the sizing is become so acute, you know, that if you walk by and you pick and select the clothing you want to try on, you can see it on your body with like absolute perfection. And you could actually order it right then and there without going into the. change room to try it on. Yeah, for sure. Because it's, I mean,

HOIKI LIU
I mean, it's anxiety having to go into the change room only to try on a piece that doesn't fit you. I was thinking of it from a new journey,

OLIVIA LEE
journey, like a new customer experience. Because for some people, it's easy to tell. And assuming your data is collected in a way that it can pinpoint your best sizing, your best fit, it should be a good fit. Yeah, it will be efficient and, you know. Yeah. Less returned. faster checkouts, better experience. There's a lot of things that can be done with virtual try -on as well.

HOIKI LIU
Because one of the, in the past with the fashion industry, one of the big issues across brands and just in general is that a customer can never really know what size she is or he is when they move across different brands because different brands will have different size and cater to their clientele. Like I was saying with all the mannequins actually. Even though I have all these different sizes, mannequins here, they don't actually correlate to each other. Like the grading might be different. And what you actually put on a mannequin and what you actually put on a person, it doesn't fit the same way because a person has a softness to it. Yeah. Mannequins don't, you know. And so with all these things, how something fits and how the sizing goes has always been a pain point for the industry. So having things like this really just release that anxiety of not knowing what size you are, what size you should be making for. Yeah.

OLIVIA LEE
There's another angle on that too. When you mentioned anxiety, I think one thing beautiful about digital fashion and say the metaverse is the whole idea of self -expression and inclusivity. Because anyone of all sides should feel good to see something and try at their own comfort and see it fit them or however they want to express themselves. If they want to be presented. on a digital platform as their true form, their true being,

HOIKI LIU
their true being,

OLIVIA LEE
or they want to be presented in an abstract form or a fantasized form. This is another thing about digital fashion that I like.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. And for designers too, because I keep saying the future of designers, we can't afford for the future of designers to all be designing. their own things from their own creation like from their own minds like all virgin materials everything brand new because there is so much leftovers from decades of production you know there's so many garments that hasn't even been worn yet we're talking about the future of fashion design for the physical world a lot of it might be taking existing things and redesigning it you know whereas it's it's a different opportunity it also creates a lot of boundaries and conditions for the designer or the creator that really just wants to design freely. Yep. Which is where they can actually fully express themselves in the digital world. And they can wrap a world around their clothing.

OLIVIA LEE
And they can wrap a world around their clothing. So it's not just that digital piece, like the one -of -a -kind piece. They can wrap an entire spatial experience around that one piece. That is like, anyone can create their own kind of like shop -up for the whole world to enjoy. So that is the beauty of this whole digital fashion and immersive experiences. This is where it's all kind of converging right now.

HOIKI LIU
Because back to the metaphors, like you can now have pop -up shops. You can have shops in the metaphors where you're physically, not physically, like your avatar is in that space walking around as if you were in a physical shop, right?

OLIVIA LEE
So there's less like barrier of entries, less costliness to it. you can build to your heart's desire. It can be a floating store in the clouds surrounded by butterflies and fairy, like anything can do. But you know, to your point about metaverse, the onboarding should not be as hard. So when I first described about the whole metaverse experience, I like to scale back now and call it more like a spatial internet experience,

HOIKI LIU
can be

OLIVIA LEE
experience, like a 3D internet. Or instead of calling it e -commerce, I see a lot of stores touching into immersive commerce. And all of this stuff can be built on your existing website, just like a microsite when you have a campaign that's out and give that as another option for your customers to experience your brand. Now, that's different from the existing 2D, the website as we know it right now. No matter how beautiful your website are, it all matters your designer.

HOIKI LIU
now.

OLIVIA LEE
guiding your customer to what they want you to see. So the hero banner, this is my collection, click here to look at my latest collection. These are the hero products, look at this. So it's very much kind of taking away that free will experience, whereas in an immersive experience, whereby you see an avatar of yourself in it or not, you're wearing a head -mounted device or not. is very much okay on a phone. You as the customer can look up or with your mouse or, you know, scroll of the finger, could follow the story or journey as it unfolds, can see, touch, experience, tap to learn about an item and not be trapped by how your designer created the user journey. So that is sort of like the new... next level of shopping experience. I see games like that too nowadays.

HOIKI LIU
see games like that too nowadays. You're kind of clicking around. And they cross over. They cross over now. Discover the world instead of it telling you like,

OLIVIA LEE
you like, this is what you discover it. Not we're jamming this down. But what they present, obviously, that's under their control as well.

HOIKI LIU
So that's very exciting. I can't wait to see that actually unfolded.

OLIVIA LEE
There's a lot.

HOIKI LIU
I feel like one of the points that... We did touch on most of the points that we said we're going to talk about already. Is there anything you want to add? I know at some point, I feel like we should talk a little bit about digital passports. Okay, if you want to talk about how, because I know when we talked about you're going to build on your, the t -shirt that you're planning, the project that you're planning next. How difficult or how should I put this? How do you see yourself taking DPP and applying that to what you're going to be doing? How's that going to play a role in this world?

OLIVIA LEE
Yeah. So with my teacher collecting, which I'm so pleased that you'll be the one that's going to be helping, it's important that we only produce what we can sell. It's not a nice thing. It's beautiful quality and stuff. So thanks for that ahead of time. So the shirt itself will have several different types of features, right? One of them is an AR feature. So it'll have a catch on the design. So when someone scans the phone using a phone, they can connect with the design of the t -shirt in a very immersive, creative way. So whereby instead of like... doing a like the Snapchat filter where you just see like a dog, dog tongue, dog ears kind of thing. You might see a shirt unfold in front of you that tells a story. So that's the AR. It will also have things like the DPP, which stands for digital product passport and also NFC, which stands for near field communicator. So these are the two things we're going to deploy onto the shirt when it launches. And the shirt, the idea is. The reason why we created it was because we ourselves are also learning as all of these advancements unfold, all of these technology becomes accessible. So we created this collection so we can also be the one who's experiencing it firsthand. So under my company, it's part of one of the important thing is we learn by doing. So it's not just advising or consulting or just sharing. We do it ourselves. So this is why we created it. the t -shirt do are you right now so you have all the the dpp nfc and the ar cash all three things is going to be on the shirt is there a direction where you think do they do these three things cross over or like

HOIKI LIU
are you right now so you have all the the dpp nfc and the ar cash all three things is going to be on the shirt is there a direction where you think do they do these three things cross over or like no, absolutely all three is separate, but all three is necessarily, or we're just trying all of it to see which takes off, which catch on, do they overlap?

OLIVIA LEE
To answer you quickly, they all overlap because once you buy the shirt, you authenticate the shirt, right? So this is where the near field, the NFC is just the first sort of point of connection. That's just tapping your... the the shirt and the chip to say your mobile phone to bring you into our platform so you can register it so this is where you get your official receipt as in welcome hoiki welcome to our t -shirt collection and world and then given that It's all connected because the digital product passport also needs to be deployed in certain ways, either through a QR code or through an NFC chip of some type. So that brings you into the platform. When you register it and it gets minted on chain onto the blockchain, that's sort of like the official receipt of provenance and authentication. OK, so that is the process where you can able to put in any information you want. So with the EU coming by 2030, that all. clothing must have a digital product passport to show the provenance, to show the origin of the material, to show the transparency of which factory, which supplier, where it came from. All of this will be part of the DNA of the shirt. So they all intercross. So to answer your question with my shirt, the t -shirt collection, it will intercross because I see this t -shirt to be always evolving and unfolding. So it's really like, I like to call like my love letter to this whole web through and fashion, digital fashion world is because just like everyone else who's just trying to figure it out, I'm figuring it out too, but I'm doing it through a tangible way such that people that I come across, I can show them that this is what it's about.

HOIKI LIU
That's so awesome. And I can't wait for us to move. Well, we're already moving on the project. So I can't wait to see how it all unfolds because it's obviously a learning process for me too. And it'll be great to be able to implement all these, you know, the digital retail, the AI journey, you know, from what has always been so traditionally such a just put it on, wear it, throw it away garment to actually see it evolve into something more that tells a story, that tells us the history. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Okay. So finally, for closing, is there anything else that you'd like to add maybe that you feel like? you've learned from this journey?

OLIVIA LEE
Okay. It's always a new day. I'm always learning something new. I think given that there's just so many things to explore nowadays, every day is a new day. I'm always learning something new. Like just recently, I learned how to use... ChatGPT to code a website. Oh, it's a website. I wouldn't say whole website yet, but it's a new thing for me because I have no background as a coder or developer. But every day is something new and you're just sort of like a checkmark away to be like, how do you use this new tool to streamline your process in terms of creativity, in terms of like deployment or seamlessness or organization? Every day is a new day.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. And it's... It seems like every day is becoming a very efficient day. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you very much for your talk today. Thank you.

People on this episode

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Hoiki Liu

Host
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Olivia Lee

Guest