Ep. 7 Invisible Solutions: Rethinking Packaging w/ Devana Ng & Flavien Chaussegros

In this inspiring episode of The Conscious Cut, host Hoiki Liu dives into the innovative world of sustainable packaging with Devana Ng and Flavien Chaussegros, co-founders of Invisible Company. Sparked by their frustration with plastic waste littering Hong Kong’s hiking trails, they created #INVISIBLEBAG, a water-soluble, biodegradable alternative to traditional plastic bags. Through candid discussions, they reveal how their sustainable lifestyle fueled this groundbreaking venture, the science behind their dissolvable material, and the challenges of scaling eco-friendly solutions in the fashion industry. From debunking recycling myths to sharing practical ways listeners can join their monthly cleanups, Devana and Flavien offer a compelling call to action for rethinking consumption and driving environmental change. Tune in to discover how small choices can create a ripple effect for a plastic-free future!

Devana Ng and Flavien Chaussegros are co-founders of Invisible Company and creators of the #INVISIBLEBAG

Thank you for listening!

Transcript

HOIKI LIU
Welcome to this episode of The Conscious Cut. Today we have with us Devana and Flavian from The Invisible Bag. So I'm going to just jump right into it and let you guys tell us, what is The Invisible Bag Company?

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Well, The Invisible Bag, long story short, is the bag that dissolves in water. But when it started from, back to seven years ago with Devana, we picked up. hiking as a weekend activity. But along the trail, we saw a lot too much trash. And we started to pick up the trash as a whole week. One Saturday, two Saturday, and then ongoing process that created an anxiety for both of us. And that anxiety led us to figure out, is there anything that we could do eventually to bypass the pollution? And that's where years of research and obviously ongoing process in our mind to create Invisible Company. We're here today in front of you to speak about it.

DEVANA NG
I think for us, the most important is like we started with a packaging, but packaging is catalyst for us to talk about sustainability. So it's great tools that we can go to school, corporate and talk about sustainability, how to start your sustainable living. And also because of our journey, picking up trash and let the creation of the company. That's what we still continue to do. Of course, every week we are trail runners or we go on the mountain, we pick up trash, and then we also organize monthly cleanup with the volunteers. And that's how through action that we can inspire change.

HOIKI LIU
So, okay, that's how and why I guess you guys started the business. But now, and okay, obviously your sustainable lifestyle came first before you guys jumped into this business. So you already answered my first two questions. But okay. the other question i want to ask is a lot of us do have that like seeing all the amount of trash and how our environment is just being destroyed you recently posted uh an instagram post that was so shocking it was but what on the news i'm not sure if you realize yeah but it's about the amount of trash and this is obviously a byproduct of humans it's not like oh the the typhoon or the waves washed onto our beach it's not It's up on the mountain. Obviously, people track there to hike up the mountain with all these, you know, drinks, disposable food, one time use, whatever. And then it's all left behind. And that's where you guys saw it. So I think a lot of us has experienced that. A lot of times we think a cleanup is all that we can really do. But obviously, you guys have gone beyond that. Now, my question is... Do you guys have a science background?

DEVANA NG
We call ourselves a CTO, not Chief Technology Officer, but Chief Trash Officer. Okay. So I always go to the school and say, okay, I'm not a technology background. I don't have a science background. And some students or like when we go to universities, people ask like, how can I start something without, or do I have to get like sustainability background? Do I have to get a science background? Yes, of course, indeed it helps, but I think the most important thing is how much you want to drive a change and that motivates you to study something different or learn something different. And I always call Flavien as a conductor in an orchestra.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
When we first started, we got the help of five to six students helping us to shape some of the strategic ideas for Invisible Company. And one day we were asking them as a task to help us figure out a slogan for the company, which we didn't get as an outcome. But one of them came with sustainability is a personal choice. If you decide that sustainability is an important element for you, you're going to start looking around at what's doable in order to improve the sustainability impact that you're creating on life, reducing your consumption of whatever you do today. but as well on your daily practices, what you can do to influence other people. And once you start looking at this, there is a lot of element that comes as a knowledge, and you realize that there is very less you know, and there's a lot to learn. And the learning process, most of the time, leads you to understand that sustainability might come from a personal behavior, but it's related to a material, which is, again, science. It goes into an ecosystem, which is manufacturing, because it goes into a consumer -level product. And then it goes again, to what the society on its own is ready or not for this product when it comes to people's hands and where it goes afterwards. And this is where basically there is a big gap in the industries. Most of the company or most of the marketings are very good at putting a product on people's hands or creating the desire for that. But once a product is being used, the residual value is so limited that at the end, It's easier for most of the people to just trash it, which is not a good behavior. So it's coming back to the first point is a personal choice. If you want to do something good, you do it. If those people don't think it's important to take care of the environment or even their own ecosystem, trashing is a solution.

HOIKI LIU
So trashing we know is bad, but now we also know actually recycling is not really a solution because we don't have enough infrastructure for recycling for it to be. truly circular i feel like in any industry really um but especially in the fashion industry the infrastructures aren't even there so i guess when the infrastructure is not there that's when you have to think about how can i come up with like materials that matter that won't be a problem for our environment right what you think is why it's so great about the bag that you guys have i've ordered it i've tested it and i can see that i mean nothing i can see nothing at the end it's basically liquid yeah so i think that's great but okay walk me through this a little bit i i mean i assume even though i see nothing there must be some chemicals some additives in the bags right how did you guys even come up with this material and how did you decide this is the the right material um i think the idea

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
think the idea also behind the name of invisible company that we had back then is seeing this trash and knowing that the waste management system wasn't necessarily too efficient we thought of is there any material that exists that can be serving the purpose on its life when the function is needed for whatever purpose but then on the afterlife there is a solution that can be using disappearing from the environment by the great from general environment based on the microorganism action. And when you look back into science, very briefly, and this is something that we learned in primary school or even secondary school, we're all made of carbon. That's the primary element of a lot of things in life. Material would degrade if the carbon chain is easily breakable. So in our research, we looked at what material exists or what material can be created that would mimic, for example, in the case, a plastic bag, but when it's going to be in touch with microorganism, bacteria, it will be degrading.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
For those search that we've done, we came across a lot of different feedstock as a raw material. There are some of them very amazing sources, but difficult to scale or difficult to bring into even industrialization at a cost that is affordable. Some of them that claim to be, that are not necessarily delivering the purpose, And pushing those research, we came across the material that we have right now for Invisible Bank that all of us have been using in our life without even noticing it. And when we figured out that it's a product that is in the daily life that has been proven by the scientific community, by the medical community, but it wasn't used in a consumable level, this is where we got our moments of coding action. The matter that we use, if you take a capsule of Panadol, or whatever kind of medicine that you ingest is digested into your body but the capsule itself there is high chances that is made of the same material that we use for invisible bike that is so clever that is so smart okay that's crazy so i mean it's it's really eye -opening because actually meeting you guys made me realize my beliefs has been very limiting i always thought oh i don't have a science background i can't

HOIKI LIU
is so clever that is so smart okay

HOIKI LIU
is so

HOIKI LIU
that's crazy so i mean it's it's really eye -opening because actually meeting you guys made me realize my beliefs has been very limiting i always thought oh i don't have a science background i can't come up with materials or ideas to solve a problem. I can just do better in my own lifestyle. But yeah, like... Well,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
in fact, in your way, you're a scientist as well, you're an engineer. It's just that you don't go with molecules and you don't go with material, but you're processing a supply chain and you're engineering the supply chain for the best outcome.

HOIKI LIU
don't go with

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
processing a supply chain and you're engineering the supply chain for the best outcome. So you're composing with elements around you. At the end, that's a sort of science too. Yeah.

DEVANA NG
i think also technology helps a lot the other day i was um talking to uh um and also someone working for the geology i was like oh so so interested about the biodiversity the rocks and the nature oh should i go and study something related to it and the first thing first said now the technology is so advanced you just search on online As long as you're passionate about something, you deep dive into it and you can get as much knowledge as you could. Of course, going to the school, it gets you a proper system that you can learn a little bit more. But the most important element is how much you really want to learn and the passion about it. And now you just, you can do everything.

HOIKI LIU
That is so true.

HOIKI LIU
And I think one of the reasons I... have you guys on today is because I wanted to highlight to the public about how, you know, actually plastic bags is one of the things that we assume there is infrastructure for recycling. We can, if we don't, if we're, you know, good enough to not throw it in the trash, we can at least throw it into the recycling bin and we would assume that's okay. But I mean, it's been proven over and over again that it doesn't necessarily end up where we think it ends up. And so, like I said, It's such an important step to take because if we just think about how fashion is the second largest polluting industry in the world, because we talk about how many billion tons of clothes there are that's just being wasted, going to landfill. But we don't need to think about actually before it's wasted and before it goes into the landfills. It actually was probably first packaged into a plastic bag. You know, and what happened to all those bags? Like if there's billion tons of clothes, there's billion tons of plastic bags that surrounds it too, right? And I've actually brought with me today, I brought with me today, some of the most common polyester bags that I will find in my company, in my factory and in my office. These are often nominated by the brands that we make for. If you don't mind, I would just like to kind of show the audience what it is that we're talking about, that we're looking at, what we want to get rid of and why. Why is this not a solution and it shouldn't even be out there? I would assume the worst one is this.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
It's probably an OPP.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah, very clear, very clean. So we know for sure this is virgin polyester. It also sounds... It's the cheapest you can ever find.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
It's the cheapest you can ever find. Okay,

HOIKI LIU
so this is,

DEVANA NG
is, I assume, is... Can you recycle this? and somehow there is some depends on the companies the technology they have but in in hong kong there are some companies they do recycle these okay but overall it's it's more difficult right is does that make that difference if i throw it i've been told that this very clear plastic that sometimes have like a blue or even a green sheen is is just not a good quality

HOIKI LIU
it's it's more difficult right is does that make that difference if i throw it i've been told that this very clear plastic

DEVANA NG
does that make

HOIKI LIU
that sometimes have like a blue or even a green sheen is is just not a good quality

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
It's definitely a lower quality grade and a virgin PE that will be used with a certain value for recycling. Therefore, since it's done grading, the quality of the material is most likely being just discarded.

DEVANA NG
I see. This one is also mostly will be used in packaging vegetables because first they're the cheapest. You buy vegetables, $20. They wouldn't spend more expensive materials. And this one, the signature for this material is very brittle compared to any other plastic bag. If you tear it on the side with the side ceiling, it's very quickly to be torn out. So every time when I see vegetable pack with this, I'm so scared to receive this packaging because it's so brittle.

HOIKI LIU
And I assume, like you said, this has the most additives. So I don't even know what might be seeping out from this, really. Okay.

HOIKI LIU
Okay.

HOIKI LIU
So this is what, whenever my customers want this, I'm kind of like, can we just... not because this is obviously virgin and we don't want to go there maybe your customer as well don't know that there is much solution out there and so they go with what they've been doing for decades without questioning further yes and i think that because that's the easiest way it's almost like trial and proven and if no one's really brought up the problem yet like correct you know yeah but so i i get a lot of these i assume sorry let me i assume these three

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
your customer as well don't know that there is much solution out there and so they go with what they've been doing for decades without questioning further yes

HOIKI LIU
so they go

HOIKI LIU
and i think that because that's the easiest way it's almost like trial and proven and if no one's really brought up the problem yet like correct

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
correct you

HOIKI LIU
know yeah but so i i get a lot of these i assume sorry let me i assume these three are very similar they're just kind of um they're not totally see -through they've got kind of they're whitish um now there's a few difference some of them has this pe ld4 some has pld5 this this looks to me really like the same thing but it doesn't have a recycled symbol on it recycling facility normally

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
it doesn't have a

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
facility normally If they were to recycle this matter, they will have technology to assess with the infrared light. So even though the number is not written, meaning that the consumers still need to put them on the recycling bin, eventually the recycling facility will have a way to segregate them.

HOIKI LIU
eventually the

HOIKI LIU
So the sorting, I assume actually, at a recycling facility is still kind of massive because for us, we just throw it all into one bin, all types of plastic, right? And this sign doesn't tell me if the bag's made of recycled materials. It only tells me that this bag is recyclable. Is that correct?

DEVANA NG
This is internationally recognized as a number. So this means that it's recyclable. And some of the people, they just put a recycle label, but without telling the material. The proper one, it should be naming one to seven. So 1 to 6 is normally is a model material that is made of, for example, PPPE, HDB, LDPE, PS, or PVC. But so you will have the number on top. But 7 is normally those material is even being recycled. It has a very little value or it's like a mixed material. Ideally, every of the packaging should... if it's recyclable, should put the numbers and tell people what's this material made of, because some of the countries, they are very well developed with the infrastructure, for example, Japan, and you better put all the numbers so the citizen would know how to recycle them.

HOIKI LIU
also they actually separate it even by the items and numbers by numbers by different items uh proper recycling it depends on the machinery some of them is even by colors for example the plastic bags if you really want to sort it out as the best outcome and have a certain value of the recyclable materials

DEVANA NG
it even by the items and numbers by numbers by different items uh proper recycling it depends on the machinery some of them is even by colors for example the plastic bags if you really want to sort it out as the best outcome and have a certain value of the recyclable materials you have to segregate them by colors. So some of the plastic bags, let's say that in a blue color, red color, or transparent and white -ish, or some of them like completely like, for example, this one have no wordings on it, that some of them have wordings, that has to be separated, but not just dump everything into one bean.

HOIKI LIU
Right. Okay. I'm surprised. I didn't realize Japan does that, but that's great because I feel like they're one of the places of the most packaging. They have probably the biggest packaging consumer,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
have probably the biggest packaging consumer, but they also have education on segregating at home.

HOIKI LIU
biggest packaging

HOIKI LIU
at home.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
And everything afterwards goes to infrastructure, also for bottles. And China, surprisingly, I heard that from a friend last time, that is one of the countries in the world where they have the highest recycling rate for PET bottles.

HOIKI LIU
Yes.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Which is, in a sense, shocking. But on the other hand, they have the infrastructure to recycle. They have the infrastructure to collect. Meaning they have everything available to make sure that they can go into circularity. I feel like now in China, it's more about the educational shift.

HOIKI LIU
I feel like now in China, it's more about the educational shift. Because I always tell people, like, I was educated in an American and international system where I was always taught to recycle. Before I actually think about where my recycles are going. But it was just such a habit for me to sort everything naturally, right? And it's a habit that you build. Otherwise, in a city like Hong Kong, where people are always chasing for efficiency, it seems really inefficient to have to sort your garbage, you know? But at the end of the day, somebody's doing it. So it's actually the most efficient if we will start from ourselves.

HOIKI LIU
seems really

HOIKI LIU
Now, besides these bags, I have these other bags here that supposedly for, I'm going to be very honest now, these are for my more sustainable. customers um one of them because they state that their bags are reusable um they expect because they do a lot of sweater knits they expect at the end of the season the customer should put their wash sweaters back into their bag to keep for you know over the summer holidays so you don't get moths eating through them or whatever but i always say like i don't know how this is not uh You know, at the end of the day, to me, this is still really much a single -use bag. Like, you can use it multiple times, but it's going to get punctures. It's not airtight, you know. And I've recently told him, I just believe this is, I've asked the supplier. Usually we don't know if, when we get the plastic bag, we don't, looking at it, I can't judge if it's made from recycled polyester or not. So we usually have to ask upon ordering to see, which is usually nominated by my supplier, so I don't have too much say on it. But recently I've asked the supplier and they weren't able to tell me if this was virgin or recycled materials, which tells me it's probably virgin materials. And additionally, because it's got the zip. And I believe this part cannot be made with recycled materials. Is that correct?

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Most likely not. That's why we have a solution with invisible bag. Because we can't lie. If you take the bag and the bag dissolves in water. It means this is an invisible bag. If the bag doesn't dissolve in water, it means that it has been mixed with material that are not soldable. Right. When you go to the recycling process of material to turn into a recycled bag, molecular is the same. There is absolutely no differences. Unless you are having a trustability of the supply chain where the manufacturer is capable of having sourcing.

DEVANA NG
There is absolutely

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
much of a former recycled content, be it 5, 10, 50 or 100%. But at the end, for us consumer, Apple for Apple remains the same. So we have no way to identify it. And even if we're having a scanner that goes with the FTR lights,

HOIKI LIU
So we

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
you couldn't see it. No. Yeah.

DEVANA NG
But most of the people wouldn't know. It's like, that's an insider story. We couldn't disclose too much. But the thing is like when it's a recycle, like let's say 100 % recycled material, the bag wouldn't be so transparent like that. Because imagine when you do recycling, you have, that's what I was mentioning earlier. There are some wardings. It means there are some calories on it. So imagine there's already calories. You recycle it. How would it be like 100 % transparent? Either you add virgin material again. to make it transparent again, or either it will be having impurities. So for a lot of brands, when they do a QC for plastic bag, they will check the impurities. So they see there's one dot of black dot on the bag, they will say, okay, this is not qualified. But in fact, if the people accept understanding the 100 % recycled material and convert into a bag, there will be 100 % that there are some impurities. So let's say we saw a brand using a 100 % recycled poly bag.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Because imagine

DEVANA NG
100 % recycled poly bag. You will compare. Yeah. It's not the same color. It's totally different. It's totally different. And the hand feel, this is so much more rough.

HOIKI LIU
It's totally different.

DEVANA NG
Rough. It's granular.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
It's granular. You can see there is some impurities, asperity.

DEVANA NG
And you will see that there is a black dot impurities on it. Right. And this is also part of the education that you need to tell people that you cannot expect. 100 % recycled material will be the same as those virgin materials. Now, that's quickly to see through the eyes to know that, oh, this will be mixed with virgin, this is not recycled. Or they call it recycled, but they buy the virgin material recycled inside the factory and then convert it into a... And it becomes post -industrial recycling.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
into a... And it becomes post -industrial recycling. Yes, like you're recycling with...

HOIKI LIU
like you're recycling with... The wastage from just virgin to begin with. The ideal would be post -consumer,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
begin with. The ideal would be post -consumer, meaning the leftover or the trash found from the waste management or even from picking up in the nature when it shouldn't be. But this would necessarily come with contamination. And the contamination, being colour impurity, would turn into this potential. When it comes crystal clear, it means that it has been processed to be clearer. So if we wear this... the gray area right um so and with that said with the gray area this is the final bag that i want to ask you guys about for now it's this d2w this has been i've been using this for one of my customers for probably uh almost i want to say a decade um it's been sold as such a you know the best plastic bag option that i can get

HOIKI LIU
with that said with the gray area this is the final bag that i want to ask you guys about for now it's this d2w this has been i've been using this for one of my customers for probably uh almost i want to say a decade um it's been sold as such a you know the best plastic bag option that i can get

HOIKI LIU
i can

HOIKI LIU
so i want to hear your thoughts on it because i've recently learned that it's not as great as we thought well price -wise it's great yes and i think that's what it's the same price as a virgin plastic bag they like it with the idea that eventually there is an additive that would break down under very difficult condition to comply with and therefore this kind of product remain 99 identical with a regular plastic

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
price -wise it's great yes and i think that's what it's

HOIKI LIU
the same price as a virgin plastic bag they

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
they like it with the idea that eventually there is an additive that would break down under very difficult condition to comply with and therefore this kind of product remain 99 identical with a regular plastic It's just the additive of maybe 1 % or less than 1 % who's promising doing something that it doesn't do. So that's why in many countries, and I think Hong Kong is the same right now, it's been banned because this is basically a greenwashing.

HOIKI LIU
So that's

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
this is basically a greenwashing.

DEVANA NG
This material, you could find it commonly added in plastic bags. So what you could found is, for example, shopping bags. Some of the retailers are using as a shopping bag now. They can't do it anymore. Second one is commonly used in a dog pool bag. So recently, there's a news in Hong Kong that an NGO or some company went to the supermarket and checked and found that there are some retailers still selling pullback with these adjectives and they have to remove from the shelf.

HOIKI LIU
I mean, that would be terrible because knowing that if it's a dog poop bag, it's going straight into the trash. If it's being wrapped up in a piece of plastic that's not going anywhere, your poop's also not going anywhere.

DEVANA NG
The funny thing is, like, we had a trail running race on Sunday. So on the country park, there is a dog pool toilet, the dog toilet, which is an open area without a trash bin next to it. And what I've seen...

HOIKI LIU
the country

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
an open area

DEVANA NG
It's very soft. It's full of the dog pull bags of the pool. Hey, the dog already pulled. You already wrapped it up. Why don't you just leave it there? Why don't you just carry it and dump it in the proper bin and leave it in the nature? It's like... This is what something gives me thinking in the situation and the mindset.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
is what something gives me thinking in the situation and the mindset. I mean,

DEVANA NG
I mean, they treated the open dog toilet as a garbage bin.

HOIKI LIU
the open dog toilet as a garbage bin. Exactly. You're guessing somebody's going to come and pick it up.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
You're guessing somebody's going to come and pick it up. So that's the point. But the whole point is the dogs were supposed to poop in there and that natural take care of its core.

HOIKI LIU
point is the dogs were supposed to poop in there and that natural take care of its core. And then you picked up the pool and should be carried into the beam,

DEVANA NG
the beam, but not just leave it there.

HOIKI LIU
there. Even if they don't bag it up at all, just let it become fertilizer. You're already on a mountain. Why did you? Put a plastic bag around it. The common sense doesn't add up in this one.

DEVANA NG
there. Even

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
a plastic bag around it. The common sense doesn't add up in this one. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
a plastic bag around it. The common sense doesn't add up in this one. Yeah.

DEVANA NG
But probably we should carry up all the pool and things. Okay.

HOIKI LIU
All right. Now that we've gone through the plastic bags, actually, I'm not quite through because I know even with you guys, you guys went through, like, you guys had different trials. You looked at actually, like, a full -on recycled, recycled bag. What other bag do you have? You have a seaweed bag, I believe.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Well, we have here.

HOIKI LIU
Not seaweed, sorry. That one is another one that is made with

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
is another one that is made with

HOIKI LIU
is another

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Fishnet. Okay. So fishnet often come in a blue color.

HOIKI LIU
And that's why the bag doesn't have the transparency.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
that's why the bag doesn't have the transparency. It has this translucent blue. Another explanation that this bag is normally 100 % from fishnet. Because the material being in the sea for so long, the characteristics of the material are fading out. So I think that this one is 30 or 40 % of the fishnet and 16 % of virgin plastic. Right.

HOIKI LIU
Right.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Which... still delivers a product that feels alike, looks alike, but you can definitely look at the color. It would never be transparent because the fishnet itself are colored, which again explained that the full transparent, all of a sudden recycled, has something not adding up to. Yes.

HOIKI LIU
So I guess that's why like at the end of the day, both these other alternatives, they're still plastic. Whereas the invisible bag currently, there's no plastic.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
This is still a polymer. When you look at it, it's like similar translucent, transparent. The feeling, the touch, the function is similar to plastic, so that's a polymer. But that polymer has the specificity of being first soluble, degradable, compostable, and consumed by microorganisms. The consumption by microorganisms see it as a compost. When you put a compost soil, when you come back after a few months, and then it goes back into dirt. what we call carbon dioxide and water. That would be the same on this one. The polymer itself, even though you don't see it after it's being dissolved, so it's like a sugar water becoming invisible by water, but imagine the sugar water going into the water stream, whether it's microorganism, or even if it ends up in the nature stream, there bacteria is going to consume the sugar the same way they're going to consume the bag. So there is no harmful residue, and the test we've done proves it. by having a toxicity test, the degradation of the landfill test, and a cold possibility test. Now, over time, and it depends on the condition around, if there is no microorganism, it takes a longer time. But if there is a high concentration of microorganism, just a few months.

DEVANA NG
I think for us to, because if you go into a very technical, chemical side of defining plastic, Many of the things are plastic, no matter how it's still plastic because it's modified. But for us, it's like plastic has its negative elements to the environment and it will fragment into microplastic that will endanger the environment. And that's what people concern the most. And for us, it's like the material at the end of the day, we call it invisible because if it ends up, let's say if you dissolve it. I mean, ideally, you dissolve it and you put it down the drain. What normally goes into is the seaweed treatment system, especially in Hong Kong, is very well developed. It adds up a loss of microorganism inside to break down the material. And while we have been visiting the seaweed system, and not because of the bad people who say,

DEVANA NG
of the bad people who say, oh, you put down the drain and then drink the environment. Actually, what endangered the most is during the COVID time, guess what? That the seaweed treatment system, every day there's engineered and go and test it. And this is something happening every day and appear in our daily life. Guess what we use the most in COVID time? The test strips and the mask. First, and for hygiene purposes?

HOIKI LIU
purposes? Oh, the... The spray alcohol stuff, those spray bottle water or whatever that chemicals are actually.

DEVANA NG
Yes, it's the chemical and the cleaning products that we use, especially you wash and you put down. What is it called? Like dental things.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
dental things.

DEVANA NG
No, no, no, no. Oh, bleach. Yes, the bleach. That is the worst. For example, we live in the village house. We have been advised so many times, do not put bleach. into the toilet. Because it goes to the substrate, you kill all the materials. And those bacteria is a good bacteria that it helps to break down the materials. And in the COVID time, they said that every day people use bleach, they clean it all because we have been, the government has been telling us to use bleach to clean.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
bleach. That

DEVANA NG
government has been telling us to use bleach to clean. That's what disinfects everything. Exactly. And at the end, they kill all the bacteria in the sewage system and they cannot even break down the pool and the pee. And so actually... people just get used to the things that oh it's good there's no problem but in fact it's not good people people just get used to it if you we all like sustainable living and everything if you think one more step and step forward what am i doing is the things that we're using is good can i do technologies there can we search a little bit more it helps you oh

HOIKI LIU
And at

DEVANA NG
the things that we're using is good can i do technologies there can we search a little bit more it helps you oh Actually, we can do something different. And maybe there's some alternative that is better to the environment.

HOIKI LIU
Such a great way of thinking. I did pick up something. This came after COVID. And it's because I felt like we were using too much Dato and bleach. Yes.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
That's why people when they ask us, is there any toxic residue afterwards?

HOIKI LIU
That's why people

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
afterwards? And I always tell them, sometimes in the skincare we use, in a shower gel or in our daily life product. there's more toxic element than what's in the bag itself right now so the other thing i wanted to ask you guys because we talked about how this is it's just it's um water soluble um it breaks down much easier so in the sense that if if the consumer who received whatever it was that they bought in an invisible bag and they decide they're not going to bother with dissolving it

HOIKI LIU
so the other thing i wanted to ask you guys because we talked about how this is it's just it's um water soluble um it breaks down much easier so in the sense that if if the consumer who received whatever it was that they bought in an invisible bag and they decide they're not going to bother with dissolving it This van can't be recycled, am I correct? Or can it be thrown into the recycling bin?

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
On the technology itself, the van would eventually be recyclable amongst the same material. Okay. But the infrastructure doesn't exist for this material specifically.

HOIKI LIU
But the

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
this material specifically.

HOIKI LIU
specifically.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
If it's been sent to the recycling facility, more so that the recycling facility goes through intense washing with hot water. Also, it will just melt away.

HOIKI LIU
it will just melt away. It will melt away.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
It will melt away. Okay. If the consumer put it in a rubbish bin, and this is what we've been assessing by choosing this matter over the other one,

HOIKI LIU
Okay. If

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
choosing this matter over the other one, it's like, if whatever matter we're going to promote within Invisible Company doesn't go into the waste stream, what's going to happen? We need to make sure that there is microorganism action that's going to consume this. As I said earlier, compost would work. I don't know if you've ever been to those home composters where you put your food scrap inside and a couple of hours later, it turns into dirt. You can put invisible bag inside.

HOIKI LIU
a couple of hours

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
It will turn into dirt in a few hours. It's also certified to be compostable. But then there's a test we've done. It's the landfill degradation. Landfill, we know it's one of the terrible areas.

HOIKI LIU
And not every landfill have the same conditions. But we wanted to assess if there is...

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
not every landfill have the same conditions. But we wanted to assess if there is... Lack of oxygen. Very few microorganisms. What's going to happen? And so this international test, which is the ASTMD5511, we submitted the bag to them. After three months, it came back 95 % degradation. Oh, that's so good. Which is like a lot more than any other material. And basically, those materials that we say with the additive, they claim having that certification, that is that test proof. But of course, we've done it in three months. some of those additives do it over two years to reach 10 to 15 percent. And if they reach 10 to 15 percent, they can get a green leaf from the certified body. For us, we got 95 percent. So I'm not going to say this is gold -free. We still have the chance to dissolve first, compost, but even though if it's not done through that ideal scenario and it goes into landfill or it goes into the nature, action of Tzami microorganism

HOIKI LIU
disappear that's so great because you guys already knew what i was asking next question because i always remind people that actually things that goes into the landfill which is when we throw things away what is that away usually the away is landfill it doesn't go away it just sits in the landfill for like centuries because as you pile everything on top like there's no light there's no oxygen there you know things don't degrade when there's no heat light or oxygen so yeah um okay so now that we've gone through the bags actually i do want to add one more thing because i saw this little which looks very like a science experiment fun thing that you guys told me you do with kids right so how how do you work with children so we recently we do a lot of school programs uh with international schools with local school

DEVANA NG
we recently we do a lot of school programs uh with international schools with local school And they're all aware that we use a lot of plastic bags. Of course, the first thing first, even we have an alternative, even in our day life, we aim to reduce and we avoid to receive a packaging first. But there is a lot of scenarios. It's hard to avoid. Let's say we work 90 % with the fashion brands. They work with a third party companies that to deliver the products. The requirement, first thing first, to fulfill and censor is you have to get a packaging. First is to protect the clothing, not to get molded. And for doing all the transportation, doing multiple locations, you have to get something. Now, how do we avoid it? So of course, then these come with an alternative. But then when we talk to the kids, they might not knowing the fashion brands have certain things. What they see is like, oh, in daylight, we have so many plastic bags. What could we do? Is that, hey, science can help us. The material science, of course, we want them to. Also, they are the future. They can change the world. So we tell them, actually, there is bioplastic that can make 100 % of biomaterials. So we're trying to play around different materials. We have been searching online. There are also some workshops in Europe. They're trying to offer this to let people experience. Of course, it cannot be scaled at this moment. It cannot be industrialized and replace all of this. But this is a step that we can explore. So what is this? There's a very thin layer. You can think of, let's say, a clean wrap, wrap, for example, a bowl. Of course, this is not what we say you can do it. But this is made of agar, starch, glycerin,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
glycerin, and water. And of course, some flower petals. just decorate it at the beginning when we finish it it like looks very colorful this has been done for two months now you can see a very thin layer um kids likes to have colors and they like to play this so we're trying to get some everything is food grade that you can buy in the bakery shop and we try to put calories uh pipe try to put beetroot powder so they can experience oh i can do something different in fact

DEVANA NG
of course, some flower petals. just decorate it at the beginning when we finish it it like looks very colorful this has been done for two months now you can see a very thin layer um kids likes to have colors and they like to play this so we're trying to get some everything is food grade that

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
they like to play

DEVANA NG
you can buy in the bakery shop and we try to put calories uh pipe try to put beetroot powder so they can experience oh i can do something different in

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
fact Why we started to create this program for kids is also going back to when we started to promote invisible back to people. We realized for ourselves and for most of the people that there is a lot of information we don't know. And why would you go into something without knowing? So first you need to understand the difference of material, the difference of operations. So the education was something. that didn't exist in sustainability like 10, 15 years ago. Now it's really changing because we see sustainability everywhere. You go to the plane, you're going to see like we bought ESG here and there. But still a lot of people are only scratching the surface. And if you want to be moving towards a sustainable journey for your company, this is a very long process. It doesn't change overnight. It's like we always say, it's like running a marathon or even a long distance. You have to start today. and add up every single day a little bit more and never stop. And the more you learn, the more you realize that there is things that can be shared. Because knowledge that we have today, we share them with you, and vice versa, you're going to bring up. So at the end, it's going to create a collective effort. But who is the future generation to use? They are our kids of today. And if we are able to imprint in them simple rules that We have to make sure we consume better. And if in their career search of today, they don't know what to do, but science can be an element that trigger interest for them, they might be able to develop the ecosystem that we miss. They'll be able to push in a company going to work out that we want to use this, and they're going to become a purchase power. And if they have the purchase power saying, I don't want to spend my money in something that is not eco -friendly, it was not having ethical point of view, then we have to stop. and therefore it became as well like very interactive to teach with the kids and even i enjoy it a lot and we've been creating this as a alternative way of thinking and we don't even promote invisible bag because that's not the the point in there is to promote the mindset the shift it's such a beautiful message

HOIKI LIU
such a beautiful message

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
such a

HOIKI LIU
You guys touched on scale, scalability, how not everything is scalable. Okay, if I can be very open and honest and ask you guys this question, what is the scale of the business now? Like who are some of your customers? What's the scale? Has it been? I mean, I know you've told me like you started this back in 2015. No, 20. 20, okay. So it's been like five years now.

DEVANA NG
Like who

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
okay.

HOIKI LIU
What's the scale like now and who are your customers? You. Yes.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
So you're the typical profile of our clients where you are manufacturing for different brands and you try to move them towards better options. And so you have different bags and you say ABC options and you hope that some of them is going to choose invisible bag. So we work with people like you. We work with different brands as well. Mostly they are like designer brand or smaller scale brand or medium size. Why? The decision -making process is fast. Usually, the founders, they've got an emotional attachment to sustainability or they want to do something, and they're okay to factor that in their retail price, and they can create it as a story. We have a case in the UK, two sisters, they will do panties, underwear, and the video they created with Invisible Back is still today their number one view video on social media. And that's something that for them is very important to factor in the communication that they use something to make them different than the other one. We work also with sports brands. There's one of them that is behind us to promote them because we are trail runners. Right.

HOIKI LIU
promote them

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
And this is a trail runner brand. The Hong Kong athlete we've been interviewing last year, and this brand is doing everything they can to promote sustainability. Of course, they sell shoes and they sell garments, but their shoes is given to be, I mean, more durability.

HOIKI LIU
About 1 ,000,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
1 ,000, sometimes 1 ,500 kilometers you can run with them, which is, okay, you pay the bucks, but you get longer distance. So a lot of the brands we work with, based in Asia or in Europe, most of them, they still have that attraction for sustainability.

DEVANA NG
In terms of numbers, for the last five years, we worked with a lot of small, as Fabian said, conscious brands, small brands, medium -sized brands. In the total number, I think more than 800 brands. Of course, during the COVID time, a lot of small brands popping out. We successfully replaced over 8 million of plastic bags with Fabian Bezo bag. It sounds like a big numbers, but we had one time talking to a serving brand. With one year, they manufactured over 10 million garments. So in five years, we only replace 8 million. It's not even the one year time that they produce. So you can tell that we are just touching maybe just a tip of a mountain. There's still a lot more to do. How can we scale up is how we also, that's what we do it day by day is the education towards people. How can corporates incorporate a sustainability mindset into the decision -making without they embrace the innovations? No matter even there's 10 or 20 companies trying to work on the innovative materials. There's no one embrace it. We have very difficult to replace the conventional plastic. In fact,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
fact, to make an additional to what Diana said, we hope that company will be less focusing on the price today because what they don't pay today, we pay forward the consequences. And sometimes by adding up a little bit on the price of manufacturing that incorporates the social, the environmental and the product like as a more sustainable idea. The low -end benefits will be much more interesting than having a pollution.

HOIKI LIU
Yes. So, I mean, I've shared this with you guys. I try to make it more incentivized from my customers because we, our company, as a manufacturer, we really want to be, not that I don't have a choice to pick which my customers are, but I feel like I should be able to promote and have a say in certain things. So one of the incentives we've given them, as I said, is we'll pay for the price difference, 60 % of the price difference between an invisible bag and your typical polyester bag. Now, with that said, I want to say very openly and honestly, yes, I'm paying for 60 % of the price difference for these bags. But when we're talking about that 60%, I'm talking about like 60 cents. per bag i'm paying an extra 60 cents per bag on top for my customer because you know a normal plastic bag would already be around a dollar say you guys it's open on your site your your largest bag is around two dollars something so i'm just taking that difference and paying 60 percent of that you know i'd rather give this to my customer as an incentive and tell them you know it's a value added thing please promote it because like you guys said without the education it doesn't matter But please promote this as part of your brand story and bring this knowledge out to your consumers and your customers. So, you know, we can actually build something long term and something real for the future, not just counting numbers now. Yeah.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
This is something that always bugs me. Why your initiative is not more popular and widely available? Because technically, you should say a T -shirt would be. FOB costs are eventually five US dollars. If you become a $5 .1 because it's an invisible bank, it should be factored in.

HOIKI LIU
If you

HOIKI LIU
Yes, yes. And especially the larger the scale, the less it would really bring it down. And on the chain of production and consumers,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
And especially the

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
it would really bring it down. And on the chain of production and consumers, somebody has or everybody has to do something for it. And why some company just stick to the pure price element is something that It's hard to accept because this is a denial for them, in my opinion. 100%. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
So, I mean, with my smaller customers right now, I also make for a lot of coffee shops, which is what they're wearing. They don't even have a choice. If you're ordering from me, then we are going with the invisible bag.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
what they're

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
That's the way to go.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah. So I guess it's just the balance of who has more power and say. Correct.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Correct.

HOIKI LIU
All right. So thank you so much for telling me all about. the invisible bag, I actually want to dig a little bit more into your lifestyles. Because, I mean, from this episode, it's very clear. It's your sustainable lifestyle and your environmental awareness that drove you into this business, really. So tell me more about your lifestyle. I already know the trigger for change and the trigger for the bags is from seeing all the garbage and having the anxiety from that. But before all of that, back to the very beginning, when did environmental awareness come into your lives? Well,

DEVANA NG
I don't know. It just comes very naturally. We try, I mean, we also interview a lot of people like how, what is the, your eco -eventure or your sustainable actions. A lot of them actually started with recycling. Amazing for us, you know. Right. You consume things. We still use our iPhone and we have furniture. You know, you cannot avoid plastic or you cannot avoid something that you cannot be recyclable. It's more like, how can we do better? So at that time, we start with recycling. We start to look at, oh, we still have to wear clothing. Can we buy secondhand? What we actually do every time when we travel back to Hawaii before. is there's three things we always do. First thing first, look for vinyls because we're music lovers. And when you look at vinyls, it's still plastic, but it can be kept for 60, 70, 80 years. We have vinyls that collected from 1930s. And second thing is vintage clothing. So we, instead of buying new clothing, fast fashion, we always look for durability. Some people also ask us, do you choose a vegan leather or a real leather? For me, my answer is durability. Of course, we need to be like cruelty free for carrying the animals. But for me, it's like, how can we keep the item as long as it's possible? When we buy our vanishes, we moved back to Yunlong from Jordan five years ago. Most of our vanishes is actually secondhand. And one of the pieces of our furniture, and this is how we met our very good friend in 2013, is a secondhand furniture. I mean, we keep it for until now. These are small little things accumulated, and that's how we form our sustainable living. We don't even call it sustainable because it's...

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
mean, we keep

DEVANA NG
It's just a natural thing is our habit. It's like we're vegan, we eat plant -based. People will think, oh, how come you're a trail runner and you eat only plants or you're going to have energy? You see, we run 30 kilometers on Saturday and then the other day also 30 kilometers. It's just come everything is so natural.

HOIKI LIU
I love also how you guys run. from your office back home. Burst is expensive, come on. You don't get lower to carbon emissions, even from your daily travels, which is so amazing. I mean,

HOIKI LIU
is expensive, come on. You don't

HOIKI LIU
I would try, but I can't run.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Oh, you have to start.

HOIKI LIU
It's like the sustainability thing, right? I just need to get on it and start. Okay, no, but I really want to go back, back though. Before you guys were even together, were your families aware of sustained environmental awareness? Did it stem from that at all? No.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
and start.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Not my family. I grew up in France and I grew up in a small town where around is surrounded by nature. Just to give you the picture, when you see the lavender field, this is where I grew up. Oh, okay. So the touch with the nature always been there. When I was a kid, I was going... you know, hiking or doing outdoor activities. And I think that for a lot of people, the sustainability starts with the law of nature. My family was not particularly keen into recycling because, how I say, my parents' generation and previously, they are the boomers. I feel like that generation...

HOIKI LIU
generation...

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
The knowledge is not there yet.

HOIKI LIU
knowledge is not there yet. They've been dragged into the movement and now all my family,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
been dragged into the movement and now all my family, they will recycle. Do they know what's happening after? Same question as we said earlier. Are they doing it consciously? I'm not too sure. Are they doing everything with the idea of reducing or being as sustainable as we are right now? Probably not. But I think for most people trying to be into the sustainability, there is something that is attaching them with preserving. something that has a beauty, that has the ingenuity in there. And for us, a part, but this is also what connected us together. My first venture into entrepreneur business, 2008, was into skincare. And back then with my partner, we worked into organic formulation, trying to use FSC paper. FSC paper? 20 years ago, 15 years ago, nobody knew what it was. Trying to work with a local supplier to minimize the carbon footprint, and we launched our product. It was, I guess, at a time too early.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
I think that no matter how, I think for companies or product developer, this should always be in print that how do we create something with the resources we have available, which is technology advancement, that is amazing. but to do something that would have less impact later. And this is also moving to your lifestyle. You, me, anyone is buying something. Can we buy something that has a better sourcing, natural fiber when you go to fashion or recycled material or wood because this is a noble material that would eventually be having a long -lasting element? Or are we buying from companies that are having a better social or environmental dynamic? as opposed to certain multinationals. And I think this is where your lifestyle change, mostly.

HOIKI LIU
I also want to go back to something Devana said earlier. One of the points that you pointed out is you picked according to durability, which I think is so important. It's not necessarily just, to be honest, plastic is not the ultimate enemy. Plastic was meant to be durable. It was meant to make, you know, whatever is made of plastic, it was meant to last you probably a lifetime or even more. The problem afterwards, you know, I don't know when it happened, maybe the 70s was, you know, when we started coming up with one -time use plastics. And then there was literally a slogan or it was in some kind of advertisement, I think in the 70s. I mean, look that back up.

HOIKI LIU
know, when

HOIKI LIU
And then there

HOIKI LIU
But the message was, the future of plastics is in the garbage. It's in the bin.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
I mean, doctors were recommending smoking back then. So you can see that there was a lot of contradictions. Yeah. So the whole idea was,

HOIKI LIU
So you can see that there was a lot of contradictions. Yeah. So the whole idea was, you know, you want to make more single -use plastic. You want to educate the public to use it. You know, that's why we had cling film. Actually, when cold bottles switched to plastic, it was such a big hype. It was only like three years later that they realized like plastic back then was literally giving people instant cancer, you know? So like things like that. It's about education, right? Like even that the plastic sector took maybe 10 years to educate the public that single -use plastic is the way to go. You want your cling foam, you want to make sure everything that you get is wrapped in plastic because that's what's protecting whatever you're buying. So I feel like what we're doing here, in a way, it's very practical sustainability movement. We're not just looking at what numbers, what your data looks like, how does your ESG look on paper, but it's very practical sustainability habits and it needs to be built. So when I asked about scalability, I do realize the big brands are not going to come instantly right away. Even my small brands are saying they don't believe they can transfer $2 onto their consumers. The big brands are even more nervous, right? But I believe it's something that's necessary. And hopefully with more information going out there, people will realize and ask for the change and push for the change.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
The push for the change has to get a strong drive of personal intention. Government, if they decide to push something, then we have no way out. We will have to do it. But it's not necessarily in the agenda for big players.

HOIKI LIU
But it's

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
But if a person...

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
brings power in his home, in his family, office, industry,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
he might add up. And no matter what are the difficulties, nothing comes easy, we know that. But I think that's a good battle to fight for.

HOIKI LIU
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just imagine one of the big sports brands, like I'm talking about a huge one, if they just change it. all the bags to invisible bags that's already however many tons of single -use plastic out of our system yeah okay normally i end the episodes by asking you guys for sustainability tips and practices that you can share with our audience that you believe is easy to pick up i feel like we've done that throughout so it's a little something a little bit different today i want you guys to share with our audience How can they take part in what you guys are doing? Because I know you do monthly beach cleanups or hike cleanups. Just, you know, how do they get involved with what Invisible Bag Company is doing? I think she would say a lot more,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
I think she would say a lot more, but I'm going to be saying something which is driving us to continue. Today we wear a T -shirt, which is Invisible T -shirt, and you can see here there is a graphic. About two years ago, we went to an exhibition and we were having... A colorful t -shirt with reason invisible here. That's all. That was two pieces for her, two pieces for me. It was our representation. People ask, can we buy it? No, we're not a fashion brand. We're not making t -shirts. But it started to add up in our mind, can we do something that eventually people could buy, but would bring value to it? And therefore, we went into the process, which you know very well for your activity, on choosing desktop fabric, trying to create a design that is attractive with a factory that we have been identifying with good practices for the social workers. We've been to visit them and shoot them. And for each piece of T -shirt we're selling, We're actually dedicating $80 to our fans' trash pickup and hike cleanup. And we sold 180 pieces of this T -shirt. And this year, we already done three or four, even based on a T -shirt with 124 volunteers joining and something like 300 to 400 kilos of trash picked up. So a way to help us, maybe pick your T -shirt.

HOIKI LIU
I'll be adding your links to our podcast so our audience will know how to reach out for sure. But even though it would be more practical on a daily life.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
But even though it would be more practical on a daily life.

DEVANA NG
Not really practical, but I think it's like, we often being asked, it's like, how can we start? It's like, we also say that six pack, I want to get my six pack, but six pack doesn't come sleeping overnight. You have to participate, you know, set up a journey for yourself. We are not forcing people to be sustainable. I think nobody likes to being forced. But if you want to start something, experience it. Actions speak louder than words. A lot of people join our cleanup. They might not come in for the second time, but a lot of them come in for the second time. First thing first is that at least something I will think of, like, how can I do better for my daily life? Because they see so many trash on the mountain or they see so many trash on the beach. at least you experience once, you will put your experience and share with the other people. So I will not force, but I will encourage people, yeah, come and join us, do the cleanup. You will experience one time and then you will do, maybe inspire you for your daily life changes.

HOIKI LIU
I think that's, it is very inspiring because a lot of participants don't realize when they join a beach cleanup, they think, I'm just going to clean this beach or this hike for today and I'm doing good today. But a lot of times it's what they get when they leave. After doing the cleanup, they realize, oh, there is a lot of trash and maybe I can reduce my own amount of garbage that I send out there in a while.

HOIKI LIU
maybe I

HOIKI LIU
of garbage that I send out there in a while. And it becomes normal afterwards.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
a while. And it becomes normal afterwards. Once you do it after a few times, it's like building up the habit. People say you need 21 days to build an habit. And it works. If you do it, then you don't even question yourself how you do it. You should, you know, become mechanical. Yeah.

HOIKI LIU
We definitely need to join the mountain hikes because honestly, our beaches in Hong Kong, most of them, our government do have like cleaners everywhere.

DEVANA NG
Still sign on them a notch.

HOIKI LIU
on them a notch. You'll be surprised.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
surprised. When I try to bring younger kids,

HOIKI LIU
When I try to bring younger kids, students to just a regular beach, there's not enough for them to pick up to make an impact.

DEVANA NG
Regular beach, actually in the government, there's a website, they will tell you the beach how often it's being cleaned. So if it's a very regular beach that people can lay down and it's pretty frequent, like three, four times, even three, four times a day, some of them. But there are some like outlaying. area is because of the wind and different scenarios, especially after typhoon. The trash is enormous and is shocking.

HOIKI LIU
We went once during, I think it must have been just after COVID time with my eldest son and it was out in Discovery Bay and obviously the trash was driving by the waves and the trash and the amount of mass. that we saw at the time. We see a lot less now,

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
by the waves

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
the time. We see a lot less now, but we used to pick up tons of them.

HOIKI LIU
tons of them. But even back then, I remember one of the things that made my kid, I think my son was six years old at the time. Yeah, something like that. He was six or seven, and he was very much adamant, like, I don't... ever want to wear another disposable mask that's good that's that's good too you know he's like this is disgusting that's why he's like these are disgusting witnessing and experiencing really make a big change yeah definitely yeah so thank you so much for your time today and for this really enjoyable episode hopefully he helps anyone to move forward and think about sustainability as just like

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
good that's

HOIKI LIU
that's good too you know he's like this is disgusting that's why he's like these are disgusting witnessing and experiencing

DEVANA NG
like this is

DEVANA NG
and experiencing really make a big change yeah definitely

HOIKI LIU
thank you so much for your time today and for this really enjoyable episode hopefully

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
he helps anyone to move forward and think about sustainability as just like It's a normal process. You don't have to think too much. Just do it. Do we have to do it like this?

HOIKI LIU
he helps

DEVANA NG
Do we have to do it like this? Click the link below.

FLAVIEN CHAUSSEGROS
Yes, subscribe.

DEVANA NG
Subscribe to CLS. Comment, like, and share. Thank you.

HOIKI LIU
Thank you. Great.

DEVANA NG
Thank you.